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this is just an exact repeat of obama trying to make settlement cessation a pre-requisite to two-state talks, back when he first came into office. then, just as now, he did this in advance of a meeting with netanyahu. remember when he disrespected netanyahu, scurried him in through the side door like some lower level diplomat, ditched him for dinner, and reportedly walked out of their meeting?

we all know that politics and diplomacy are games of negotiation; give and take. and what obama is trying to do here, is to shift the goal posts and take away all of israel's bargaining chips, before the negotiations have begun. did he even make mention of the arab's "right of return" stance? because that very issue IS the crux of the arab/israel conflict. israel will never agree to right of return, because that would be the end of israel. there are millions more "palestinians" in the countries surrounding israel, than there are israelis. and in a democratic nation, what does that mean? the end of a jewish homestate. and the palestinians will never agree to give up right of return, because that's basically the reason there's been strife since the creation of israel.

now, everyone agrees that israel has a right to exist, yet the liberal left looks at it as if israel is the problem, and they will be able to exist, without taking any of the measures to ensure that. if israel would just give in on everything, abd allow the palestinians to have everything they want, then the attacks on israel, and the animosity toward israel would simply vanish away.

additionally, obama - and the rest of the liberal west - just totally fails to appreciate the fundamentalist strain that's driving what we see going on in the region. in every case where a ruler has been cooperative with the west, there has either been a regime change, or the promise of one. egypt, yemen (just as they began to cooperate with us more in combating al qaeda there), and tunisia. meanwhile, where have the protests been unsuccessful? iran, and syria; ironically enough, where up until now, not much has been said.

and very powerful people - religious figures and leaders of these organizations pushing for change - continue to call for the irradiation of the jews from palestine. if only they could shoot a jew before they die.

wake up world.

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and the 1967 lines? giving the old part of jerusalem to the palestinians?! are you kidding me?

and meanwhile, in bin laden's last tape, he says take advantage of the arab spring. the west is cheering on, the same thing that bin laden is. freaking crazy...

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I can't express how pissed I am ... to betray one of our nation's greatest friends in favor of terrorists.

I like how he said "This will need to be worked out between the Israeli's and Palestenians" out of one side of his mouth just after decreeing that it must be done with the other side.

Of course, the MSM will portray this as a demonstration of his genius and leadership.

The world has gone mad.

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and under the 1967 lines, these holy sights will be under muslim control. the mount of olive. the temple mount, even the wailing wall. the church of the holy sepulcher. the garden of gethsemane, and the sight of the last supper. unreal. we're pushing the region into war. between obama framing the upcoming two-state talks, and the islamic awakening, we're heading for disaster, because the west refuses to take the arabs at their words.

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What would you do, then?

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
What would you do, then?

The right thing.

Support our friends/allies and their sovereignty ... support freedom.  And "just say no" to supporting terrorists.

To be blunt, anyone who thinks this will solve the problem is fooling themselves.  The charter of Hamas calls for the annihilation of Israel.

They will not stop until it happens.  I don't want to be a party to it.

Never again!

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Originally Posted by Scott Terry:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
What would you do, then?

The right thing.

Support our friends/allies and their sovereignty ... support freedom.  And "just say no" to supporting terrorists.

To be blunt, anyone who thinks this will solve the problem is fooling themselves.  The charter of Hamas calls for the annihilation of Israel.

They will not stop until it happens.  I don't want to be a party to it.

Never again!

You mean support a theocracy that systematically represses now Jews?  Our unconditional support for them has always been a mistake.  Thats not to say that Hamas or Fatah are any better, but Israel has demonstrated again and again its utter lack of respect for human rights and as such its stupid to keep giving Israel a carte blanche.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

You mean support a theocracy that systematically represses now Jews?  Our unconditional support for them has always been a mistake.  Thats not to say that Hamas or Fatah are any better, but Israel has demonstrated again and again its utter lack of respect for human rights and as such its stupid to keep giving Israel a carte blanche.

Those two sentences reek so much of ignorance and brainwashing that a thoughtful response from me would be a waste of energy.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Scott Terry:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
What would you do, then?

The right thing.

Support our friends/allies and their sovereignty ... support freedom.  And "just say no" to supporting terrorists.

To be blunt, anyone who thinks this will solve the problem is fooling themselves.  The charter of Hamas calls for the annihilation of Israel.

They will not stop until it happens.  I don't want to be a party to it.

Never again!

You mean support a theocracy that systematically represses now Jews?  Our unconditional support for them has always been a mistake.  Thats not to say that Hamas or Fatah are any better, but Israel has demonstrated again and again its utter lack of respect for human rights and as such its stupid to keep giving Israel a carte blanche.

Now should have been non.

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israel gave back gaza, and what did it get them? daily rocket attacks. israel gave back the sinai, and what did it get them? an arab border with gaza, from which said rockets are smuggled. israel gave back southern lebanon, and what did it get them? daily rocket attacks from hizbollah. and none of these areas were the spoils of expansionism. they all came from victories over the arabs who on numerous occassions DID try to drive the jews into the sea. now they want the jews to give up almost all of the old part of jerusalem, and the golan heights, from which the syrians DID rain down rockets and artillery shells during the 67 war.

nothing has changed. the arabs ARE STILL calling for the eradication of the jews. they still bomb israel almost daily, with no reports in the western media. it is un-freakin-believable how many people refuse to take them at their word, and how many people have forgotten the lessons of history.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
this is just an exact repeat of obama trying to make settlement cessation a pre-requisite to two-state talks, back when he first came into office. then, just as now, he did this in advance of a meeting with netanyahu. remember when he disrespected netanyahu, scurried him in through the side door like some lower level diplomat, ditched him for dinner, and reportedly walked out of their meeting?

Well, wasn't this because Netanyahu had pretty much pissed on the VP the week before by announcing a big extension of the settlements in East Jerusalem the day that Biden arrived in the country to tell the Israelis that the US still had their back?

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Originally Posted by Scott Terry:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
What would you do, then?

The right thing.

Support our friends/allies and their sovereignty ... support freedom.  And "just say no" to supporting terrorists.

To be blunt, anyone who thinks this will solve the problem is fooling themselves.  The charter of Hamas calls for the annihilation of Israel.

They will not stop until it happens.  I don't want to be a party to it.

Never again!

So "stay the course" then is it?  Hasn't worked out very well so far has it? One of the definitions of madness is doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results. I'm not saying that Obama's speech is the best way forward, it isn't, but someone has to take the lead somewhere and no-one else is doing it.

There's a difference between supporting one's friends and blindly supporting one's friends when they're doing stupid stuff. Sometimes to help a friend you have to stage an intervention. Hamas isn't the problem, Israel isn't the problem, BOTH SIDES are the problem. Both sides think that "a negotiated settlement" means "I get everything I want and screw the other guy". Both sides need a smack up-side the head.

The best chance of a settlement which gave most people most of what they wanted was the Camp David talks in 2000. That peace plan was pretty much scuppered by Arafat who thought he could hold out for more. That should be the starting-point for new talks, not 1967.

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

The best chance of a settlement which gave most people most of what they wanted was the Camp David talks in 2000. That peace plan was pretty much scuppered by Arafat who thought he could hold out for more. That should be the starting-point for new talks, not 1967.

this sort of sounds reasonable, except clinton gave arafat just about everything he wanted, and arafat ran away from the deal. what does that tell you? miles, for as long as israel has been a state, the stated purpose of the palestinians and their supporters has been TAKING BACK the country. not two states, living peacefully beside each other. and this moral equivalence bullshit, is just flabbergasting. israel builds some jewish settlements, and the palestinians rocket attack? is that equivalent? every single time there's a conflict, it is at the behest of the palestinians. and in every instance, once israel turns control back over, and once they've bulldozed israeli settlements, it bites them in the ass. and then israel comes in with the modern implements of war, after having troops abducted within israeli soil, and after months and months of rocket attacks, and the palestinians are the victims?!

from 2001-2010  there have been more than 8,000 rockets fired on israeli civilians. of those, nearly 6000 have come from the gaza strip since israel withdrew. this year alone, there have been 193.

in 2004 75% of palestinians supported firing rockets on israel.

in 2006 63% agreed they should emulate hizbollah's tactic of firing on israeli cities.

in 2008 64% agreed they should fire rockets from gaza on israeli cities.

these are the peace loving victims we hear about? so literally THOUSANDS of rockets are fired into israel, and they don't have a right - no, an obligation - to protect their sovereignty and citizenry with force?

and miles, again, how much have the israeli's already given up, and what has it gotten them? it got them hamas taking power in gaza. it got them more attacks from the palestinians and hizbollah to the north. and all that is neglecting the history of the region, and the number of times that the nations themselves around israel have tried to take the land back BY FORCE.

im sorry, but this isn't an all things considered equal kind of situation.

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Then what the hell do you guys want?  Israel to go commit genocide and drive out every last Palestinian?  How do you actually propose to make anything better?  The way I see it, both sides want war.  The Palestinians keep bombing Israel and the Israelis keep building settlements.  Each just keep egging the other on.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
Then what the hell do you guys want?  Israel to go commit genocide and drive out every last Palestinian?  How do you actually propose to make anything better?  The way I see it, both sides want war.  The Palestinians keep bombing Israel and the Israelis keep building settlements.  Each just keep egging the other on.

well this first sentence is just silly. and again, i would just strongly urge you to research all this, for yourself, because i feel like you're missing all the context, and just going off of the general vibe you've been picking up. there has never been a genocide perpetuated by israel. are you kidding me? the same people who endured the most horrible genocide on the face of the planet?

i don't think you have any idea how far this goes back. all the way back in 1947, when the UN general assembly ratified the partition plan for palestine, the call was for two-states. one jewish, and one palestinian. this is what the map would have looked like.



the israelis accepted the plan, but the arabs walked away, saying they would greet any attempt at creating a homestate for the jews with war. they wanted it all. which is what led to the israeli war of independence 47-49. during this time, both jews and arabs were displaced by the fighting. the jews fought not only the palestinian arabs, but also the egyptians, iraqis, and jordanians invaded. in the end though the jews came out on top, and afterward, israel looked like this:



israel took in all of the displaced jews following the fighting, while the arab nations around israel, namely jordan, didn't take in the palestinian refugees. instead they left them in refugee camps, and denied them citizenship. see, the palestinians are the bastards of the arab world. no one really wants them, they're just used as a tool to divert the same attitudes that have driven the arab spring.

from wiki:

"During the Fifties, hundreds of Israelis were killed in Fedayeen attacks from (Egyptian occupied) Gaza into Israeli territory. The attacks began as private initiatives by Palestinian refugees and the victims were frequently Jewish refugees from Arab countries. Fedayeen attacks led to a growing cycle of violence as Israel launched reprisal attacks against Gaza and the Egyptian government organized and sponsored the Fedayeen.

In 1956 Egypt blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba, and closed the Suez canal to Israeli shipping. The canal was then nationalized, to the dismay of its British and French shareholders. In response, France and the United Kingdom entered into a secret agreement with Israel to take back the canal by force.

The Israeli, French and United Kingdom forces were victorious, but withdrew in March 1957 due to pressure from the United States and USSR.

In return for the withdrawal Israel was guaranteed freedom of access to the Red Sea and the Suez Canal and action to end attacks from Gaza. In practice the Suez Canal remained closed to Israeli shipping.

In 1964, Egypt, Jordan and Syria developed a unified military command.

On May 17, 1967 Syria, Egypt and Jordan amassed troops along the Israeli borders and Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Nasser demanded that the UNEF leave Sinai, threatening escalation to a full war.

On the morning before Dayan was sworn in, June 5, 1967, the Israeli air force launched pre-emptive attacks destroying first the Egyptian air force and then later the same day destroying the air forces of Jordan and Syria. Israel then defeated (almost successively) Egypt, Jordan and Syria. By June 11 the Arab forces were routed and all parties had accepted the cease-fire called for by UN Security Council Resolutions 235 and 236.

Israel gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and the formerly Jordanian-controlled West Bank of the Jordan River."

here's what israel looked like after that:



again from wiki:

"The Yom Kippur War (also known as the October War) began on October 6, 1973 (the Jewish Day of Atonement), the holiest day in the Jewish calendar and a day when adult Jews are required to fast. The Syrian and Egyptian armies launched a well-planned surprise attack against the unprepared Israeli Defense Forces. For the first few days there was a great deal of uncertainty about Israel's capacity to repel the invaders, however the Syrians were repulsed and, although the Egyptians captured a strip of territory in Sinai, Israeli forces had in turn crossed the Suez Canal and were 100 kilometres from Cairo.

Although the war's results were generally favourable to Israel, it cost over 2,000 dead and resulted in a heavy arms bill. The war generally made Israelis more aware of their vulnerability. Following the war, both Israelis and Egyptians showed greater willingness to negotiate. On January 18, 1974, following extensive diplomacy by US Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, a Disengagement of Forces agreement was signed with the Egyptian government, and on May 31 with the Syrian government. On the international scene, the war led the Saudi Government to initiate the oil embargo, in conjunction with OPEC, against countries trading with Israel, contributing to global stagflation. As a result, many countries broke off relations with Israel or downgraded relations and Israel was banned from participation in the Asian Games and other Asian sporting events."

anyway, you tell me which side is out for blood, and which is out for survival. the fact that israel has given away more hard earned land than that which currently makes up israel, and the fact that this has brought them no peace or security, ought to tell you something.