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I was stunned after hearing Obama's speech.  I had felt like maybe he was pro Palestinean before, but trying to divide up Jerusalem (after repeatedly saying he'd never do that) showed me he is blatantly anti-Jewish.  He's pretty much asking Israel to commit suicide.  I have now lost what little respect remained for our President.

Loved the presser between Israeli PM and the President yesterday.  That was a case of a REAL leader schooling an idealistic wannabe with his head in the clouds.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
and the 1967 lines? giving the old part of jerusalem to the palestinians?! are you kidding me?

and meanwhile, in bin laden's last tape, he says take advantage of the arab spring. the west is cheering on, the same thing that bin laden is. freaking crazy...

More broken promises.  Obama stabbed Israel in the back the other day.  

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

and this moral equivalence bullshit, is just flabbergasting. israel builds some jewish settlements, and the palestinians rocket attack? is that equivalent? every single time there's a conflict, it is at the behest of the palestinians. and in every instance, once israel turns control back over, and once they've bulldozed israeli settlements, it bites them in the ass. and then israel comes in with the modern implements of war, after having troops abducted within israeli soil, and after months and months of rocket attacks, and the palestinians are the victims?!

You left out a bit there: "Israel builds some settlements, the palestinians rocket attack, and Israel goes back in and bombs Gaza back into the stone age - again". I'm not claiming "moral equivalence", I'm saying that at this stage neither side is capable of claiming the moral high ground or claiming that they are the helpless victims, and neither side can hope to win by continuing the way they are going. The Palestinians aren't going to get Israel back and the Israelis aren't going to solve the problem by building more settlements and hoping the other side just gets sick of fighting.  

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bomb gaza back into the stone age? this is so disingenuous. you telling me they've carpet bombed gaza indiscriminately? are you telling me they are so unrestrained and savage that they don't take the same measures as other western militaries to limit civilian casualties?

and no, there is no side in this thats as pure as the wind driven snow, but the point is, there's quite a difference between the two. the only side that engages in terror, and indiscriminate attacks are the palestinians. if the jews win an arab/israeli war, what happens? they eventually give the land they've taken back. do you mean to tell me that if the arabs win an arab/israeli war, they will do the same?

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

You left out a bit there: "Israel builds some settlements, the palestinians rocket attack, ...

But see that's the Pal's answer for everything.  Rather than try to use diplomacy, negotiate their positions or ask for help from the UN...they just launch rockets.  And they get caught smuggling rockets into Gaza.  All they know is terror.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
Then what the hell do you guys want?  Israel to go commit genocide and drive out every last Palestinian?  How do you actually propose to make anything better?  The way I see it, both sides want war.  The Palestinians keep bombing Israel and the Israelis keep building settlements.  Each just keep egging the other on.

Not really happy with the amount of support we give them, but still think they have a right to keep land gained in a defensive war.

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Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
Then what the hell do you guys want?  Israel to go commit genocide and drive out every last Palestinian?  How do you actually propose to make anything better?  The way I see it, both sides want war.  The Palestinians keep bombing Israel and the Israelis keep building settlements.  Each just keep egging the other on.

Not really happy with the amount of support we give them, but still think they have a right to keep land gained in a defensive war.

Israel screwed up when they first conquered that land.  In stead of trying to assimilate the conquered Palestinians into Israel (like the Romans did to most of the areas they conquered) they instead tried to drive them out and persecuted those who remained behind.  I don't know that it would currently be possible to assimilate the Palestinians with all the bad blood there, and I don't think either side is willing to live with the minimum demands of their neighbors.  I don't know how piece would be possible without a major shift in tactics from both sides.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:

Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

You left out a bit there: "Israel builds some settlements, the palestinians rocket attack, ...

But see that's the Pal's answer for everything.  Rather than try to use diplomacy, negotiate their positions or ask for help from the UN...they just launch rockets.  And they get caught smuggling rockets into Gaza.  All they know is terror.

Thats only looking at a small part of the picture.  Consider Fatah controlled West Bank.  Fatah's methods have historically been very different than those of until now rival Hamas (hence Hamas drove Fatah out of Gaza), yet their treatment by Israel wasn't all that much better than Gaza.  While they were not bombed like Gaza, the place is ran like a reservation by Israel and they still suffered from the encroaching settlements.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:


Israel screwed up when they first conquered that land.  In stead of trying to assimilate the conquered Palestinians into Israel (like the Romans did to most of the areas they conquered) they instead tried to drive them out and persecuted those who remained behind.  I don't know that it would currently be possible to assimilate the Palestinians with all the bad blood there, and I don't think either side is willing to live with the minimum demands of their neighbors.  I don't know how piece would be possible without a major shift in tactics from both sides.

Can one really assimilate a population that, from the beginning, has stated that they desire nothing more than the destruction of the state trying to assimilate them???

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Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:


Israel screwed up when they first conquered that land.  In stead of trying to assimilate the conquered Palestinians into Israel (like the Romans did to most of the areas they conquered) they instead tried to drive them out and persecuted those who remained behind.  I don't know that it would currently be possible to assimilate the Palestinians with all the bad blood there, and I don't think either side is willing to live with the minimum demands of their neighbors.  I don't know how piece would be possible without a major shift in tactics from both sides.

Can one really assimilate a population that, from the beginning, has stated that they desire nothing more than the destruction of the state trying to assimilate them???

precisely. it amazes me the amount of misunderstanding surrounding the JEWISH state. for some reason, people seem to think that the israelis can just let all the arabs back into israel itself, and somehow still have a JEWISH homeland. from the very beginning, the sole purpose of the creation of israel and the partitioning of land, was FOR the JEWS to have a homeland. meanwhile, palestine was FOR the arabs(even though every other inch of that region IS for arabs as well).

personally, i feel like the time to debate israel's right of existence (as a jewish state) has come and gone 60 some odd years ago when israel WAS created as a jewish homeland. all that is in the books. we're not dealing with the past, we're dealing with the present. and going back to the 67 lines is just as ridiculous as america giving texas the southwest back to mexico. what is, is. what is, is not what was.

so again, does israel, AS A JEWISH HOMELAND, have the right to exist? there's no middle ground really. you have to pick. and if you say yes it does have the right to exist as a jewish homeland, then you have to accept the unfortunate realities that go along with that choice.
the arabs DONT WANT ISRAEL TO EXIST. period. they never have and they never will. simple as that.

so pick.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
I don't know how piece would be possible without a major shift in tactics from both sides.

...which is what I was saying originally, which is why the "I support israel no matter what they do, and screw the palestinians" attitude is unhelpful.  

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I think the creation of a Jewish state in the first place was lamentable.  Do I wish for Israel to be destroyed?  No, of course not.  Just reformed.  In the mean while, however I don't think we should be propping up a theocracy.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
I think the creation of a Jewish state in the first place was lamentable.  Do I wish for Israel to be destroyed?  No, of course not.  Just reformed.  In the mean while, however I don't think we should be propping up a theocracy.

I agree that it was a mistake to create a Middle Eastern state for a bunch of Western European Jews, but what can really be done about it now???

You speak of assimilation like what the Romans did. Are you sure you want to see that??? Remember that to fully assimilate just those tribes in Italy, the a Romans fought a series of Social Wars that pretty much exterminated the adult male populations of the resisting tribes and enslaved the youths. Never did many of these tribes  EVER gain full citizenship. Later on the Romans used methods such as forcibly moving members of nations to other parts of the empire to stave off rebellion. I don't think this is favorable.

Assimilation has proved to be historically either impossible or very damn hard. Heck, we just had a discussion about tUSA's Indian population (I have recently found out that they prefer the term Indian to Native American). Very few native tribes have been successfully assimilated. Some here even argued against assimilation by way of continuing the current status quo. Instead of giving the Indians their own land, they would rather dump tons of Federal money into government owned reservations.

Do you see the hypocrisy in the nature of these two arguments??? How can one argue for full assimilation of the Palestinians, yet argue against full assimilation of American Indians???

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BTW.

Just how many friggin posts do I have to make to get past this "Cool Senior Member" status???

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
I think the creation of a Jewish state in the first place was lamentable.  Do I wish for Israel to be destroyed?  No, of course not.  Just reformed.  In the mean while, however I don't think we should be propping up a theocracy.

reformed how? don't you understand what it would mean if all the palestinians were suddenly able to just go live in israel? do you understand the masses of people who are descended from those who were originally expelled from jewish land? do you also know that jews were expelled from arab lands, and were relocated to israel? but the arabs didn't take in their people.

let me be blunt, the palestinians and their backers don't want peace. they want israel. and so long as they are a nationless people (you know, poor victims of the evil israelis who occupy a tiny sliver of land amid an ocean of arab neighbors) the quest to regain israel stays alive.

i mean jesus, are you blind to the **** they're teaching their kids? are you deaf to the things they say, like pushing the jews into the sea? do you think they're just talking ****? you have to take them seriously, because that is the way that every single muslim country in the mideast feels about israel's existence.