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Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:


I agree that it was a mistake to create a Middle Eastern state for a bunch of Western European Jews, but what can really be done about it now???

exactly. what is, is. they are there now, and either you think they should go, or they should be able to remain a jewish homeland.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:


I agree that it was a mistake to create a Middle Eastern state for a bunch of Western European Jews, but what can really be done about it now???

exactly. what is, is. they are there now, and either you think they should go, or they should be able to remain a jewish homeland.

Well the problem is that before we (and by we I mean tUK) forced the Jews upon the Palestinians (and by Palestinians I mean the population that was there before hand 'cause they didn't call themselves Palestinians then) they accepted the Jews that were there and they got along peacefully.

Talk about screwing the pooch. The only way out now, as I see it, is to just give the Jewish people New Jersey and be done with it.

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well miles, as you said, there were jews and arabs living in the land. upon partitioning, people from both sides were displaced. but again, it's too late to debate that. it happened, and now we're left with the current set up. so we go back to the question. regardless of how you feel about the founding of israel, it was founded, so does israel have a right to remain the jewish homeland or not? or, should they now be expelled from their country?

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and just look at how much more land the palestinians would've had if they had agreed to the UN's 1947 plan. israel would've had more arab land than jewish land.

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by the way, america gives more money to muslim countries than it does israel.

in FY2009 we gave israel $2.4 billion. meanwhile, we gave around $6 billion to its neighboring arab nations, and that's not to mention other arab nations that aren't in israel's backyard.

now, i don't particularly like using the people's money for any foreign charity, but the claim can't be made that america is JUST propping up israel.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

well miles, as you said, there were jews and arabs living in the land. upon partitioning, people from both sides were displaced. but again, it's too late to debate that. it happened, and now we're left with the current set up. so we go back to the question. regardless of how you feel about the founding of israel, it was founded, so does israel have a right to remain the jewish homeland or not? or, should they now be expelled from their country?

Ah, now we're hitting a bit of a split here, between "the right to exist" and "the right to remain the jewish homeland" - so, a difference between the right to a national identity as "Israelis" and the right to a national identity as "Jews". Yes, it has a right to exist, the question is what sort of country does it have a right to exist as? I agree that giving in on the palestinian "right to return" would mean demographically Israel as a totally "Jewish state" would cease to exist, but, so long as the different people of that state agree to co-exist peacefully, would that mean it would cease to be "the Jewish Homeland"? I know it sounds unlikely as a solution, but not totally impossible.  

Look at Northern Ireland. 30 years ago, it was pretty much an armed camp, with one side of the community doing their best to eliminate/drive out the other side, with people getting shot, bombed and kneecapped on nearly a daily basis during the height of the troubles (the Europa Hotel in Belfast holds the record as the most bombed hotel in the world).  Hell, they were still bombing & shooting each other 15 years ago. Every time it looked like there was a chance for peace, someone would set off a bomb or shoot someone, the other side would retaliate and the whole tit-for-tat cycle would start again - sound familiar? There used to be a saying down here in the Republic: "Northern Ireland: a problem for every solution". Did you know they had parliamentary elections 2 weeks ago? Probably not. Was so quiet and uneventful that it barely even made the news here, never mind anywhere else. That's how successful the peace process has been there. The anger and the violence has been limited to a few die-hards on both sides; It's still not all sweetness and light, but no-one is killing each other any more. So, peace is possible. And now for the most important question: how do you manage it?

Maybe what you need is a common enemy that the various people can rally around in opposition to, something like "I may be a jew and you may be a muslim, and we've had our differences, but those guys over there are way worse so we'd better band together and fight them". So, in the absence of a convenient alien invasion, can I suggest the scientologists?

:-P

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
by the way, america gives more money to muslim countries than it does israel.

in FY2009 we gave israel $2.4 billion. meanwhile, we gave around $6 billion to its neighboring arab nations, and that's not to mention other arab nations that aren't in israel's backyard.

now, i don't particularly like using the people's money for any foreign charity, but the claim can't be made that america is JUST propping up israel.

How much of that money though is "helping" allies like Pakistan in the War On Terror (i.e. buying their oh-so-fickle loyalty)?

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:


How much of that money though is "helping" allies like Pakistan in the War On Terror (i.e. buying their oh-so-fickle loyalty)?

that's not included in the 6 billion, and constitutes WAY more money than 6 billion.

and miles, i have to say you're living in a fairy tale if you really think the arabs and israelis will have some kind of coombiyah moment. dude, you know that even in moderate arab countries, just the influence of shariah is dominant. now again, in a democratic country, what happens when all the palestinians rush back into israel, not just from palestinian lands, but all the ancestors of those expelled in the surrounding nations? sure, it would be a free jewish state...until the first election.

what you are talking about, is in essence giving all of israel back to the arabs, which would result in most israelis fleeing elsewhere. why can't i get you to understand that these people talk about how horrible the jews are, and talk about killing them on a day-by-day basis? i don't understand why so many people think they are just peaceful victims, or that they can be negotiated with when they are teaching their kids about killing the awful jews. if that were the case, the palestinian state would've been realized a long time ago. but that would involve the palestinians acknowledging israel's claim on the land, that they view as being all theres.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
the arabs DONT WANT ISRAEL TO EXIST. period. they never have and they never will. simple as that.

so pick.

Exactly. As for the 1967 lines...seems to me if the Palestineans and the rest of theArab World would stop bombing innocent civilians and recognize Israel's right to exist as a nation, they might be able to move back to the '67 lines.  But since they refuse, Israel has no choice in the matter.  It must be able to defend itself.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

and miles, i have to say you're living in a fairy tale if you really think the arabs and israelis will have some kind of coombiyah moment. dude, you know that even in moderate arab countries, just the influence of shariah is dominant. now again, in a democratic country, what happens when all the palestinians rush back into israel, not just from palestinian lands, but all the ancestors of those expelled in the surrounding nations? sure, it would be a free jewish state...until the first election.

what you are talking about, is in essence giving all of israel back to the arabs, which would result in most israelis fleeing elsewhere. why can't i get you to understand that these people talk about how horrible the jews are, and talk about killing them on a day-by-day basis? i don't understand why so many people think they are just peaceful victims, or that they can be negotiated with when they are teaching their kids about killing the awful jews. if that were the case, the palestinian state would've been realized a long time ago. but that would involve the palestinians acknowledging israel's claim on the land, that they view as being all theres.

I never said anything about there being a "coombiyah moment", those kind of things only exist in the movies as a rather lazy plot device. Anything that happens will happen because of hard work and tireless campaigning by those who believe in peace.

Am going to come off a bit elitist and arrogant in what I say next, but here we go anyway: most people are sheep, tell them something often enough and long enough and they'll believe it. The poorer and more uneducated you are, the easier it is, and there are a lot of poor and uneducated poeple in the middle east. That's how Hamas and the authoritarian middle eastern governments manage it, they pretty much own the modes of communication in their countries and so they have nearly unlmited access to maniplulate the belief systems of the "arab on the street". Israel is an easy target to aim the people's hatred at to distract them from their own (in a lot of cases) miserable living conditions. As I said in a different thread a while ago "if Israel didn't exist, the arab dictators would have had to invent it".  

So, to combat this, to help change their worldview, you need 2 things: make them less angry, and give them an alternative viewpoint on things. Sanctions and blockades don't work, they just make the people poorer and angrier, the opposite of what you want. Help improve the people's standard of living and education, and engage in a proper eductational "PR war", run by people who understand the arab mindset (not the ham-fisted propaganda efforts the US seems to have tried in iraq). Most of the palestinian schools are madrassahs or are run by Hamas, so help fund secular schools where the kids have a chance of learning about something that will actually help get them a good job. Something like the schools set up by Greg Mortenson in Afghanistan & Pakistan (the "three cups of tea" guy). I'd say more on this but I want to move onto my next point as I have to go soon ;-)  

As for the right of return, again I never said "let them all rush back in". At the moment Israel is pretty mnuch refusing point blank to consider the right of return, but the way to play it there is to agree to it in principle but under limited and controlled conditions. So, something like a lottery system, where say 100,000 palestinians are chosen by lottery every year to be eligible to return. Their choice is: Israel will agree to allow them back in with a sum of money to help them set up, payable over a few years OR they get a larger lump sum in lieu of the right to return. If they choose the lump sum they waive their right to apply in the future again. The "resettlement fund" should be jointly paid for by Israel and the arab nations the palestinians are refugees in - this pretty much puts it up to the arab governments who have been banging on about the "plight of our brother palestinians" for so long to either put up or shut up, become part of the solution or back off.  

You could say that none of the above is likely to happen, and yeah, it will take a pretty big seismic shift in things, but it's not impossible. As I said this isn't an overnight job, it'll take years if not decades, you can perhaps write off the current generation of adults, but there's a chance with the young people. And who knows how things will turn out - how many people back say in november would have predicted the "Arab Spring?"  

So anyway, after all that and so far everyone else pretty much shooting down all my ideas/comments, and outlining all the "irreconcilable differnces", how would YOU handle the peace process? What plans/suggestions would you have for the area? Or is it a case of "there can never be peace" in which case we might as well say "a plague on both your houses" and leave them at it?

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well miles, i wouldn't handle the peace process. i don't see it as america's place to do so. we didn't create israel, and we don't have a stake in it. basically, what i wouldn't do, is what every president HAS done. we come in and make public demands of both sides, backing everyone into a corner, and ruining any chances of success.

i will say this though. so far, there has been only one side to relinquish territory/control voluntarily, and that is israel. as i've already said. and never has it gotten them positive results. instead, it's been viewed as a sign of weakness, and has spurred on the militants to push for more.

so while i agree with much of what you say philosophically, i DON'T think that israel has to be the party putting in all the effort. you have to have a willing partner in order to even begin such an undertaking. and when that partner currently views you as an enemy, and is prone to attacking you, you can't very well even entertain the thought. honestly, this whole reparations mindset - across the globe, not just with this issue - seems very dangerous to me. because we live in the world we inhabit now, not the world as it once was. and if one group tries to "make right" the actions of their (often ancient) ancestors, they are either directly or indirectly de-legitimizing their own claim to land, and their own success.

additionally, i think there is more to be gained by people of authority in the palestinian/arab camp from maintaining their perceived victimhood, than there is in statehood. and until that changes, there will be no lasting peace deals.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
well miles, i wouldn't handle the peace process. i don't see it as america's place to do so. we didn't create israel, and we don't have a stake in it. basically, what i wouldn't do, is what every president HAS done. we come in and make public demands of both sides, backing everyone into a corner, and ruining any chances of success.

Nice avoiding of the question there :-P

Ok, so how about this: if you were to be asked how would you handle the peace process, regardless of who actually does the implementing, what solutions would you come up with/suggest  to try to bring about peace in the region, with "peace" being defined as "both an Israeli and a Palestinian state co-existing with semi-cordial relations, and no-one shooting/bombing/launching rockets at anyone else". Bear in mind the "co-existing" can be a long-term goal, as in it being reached in years/a decade/more as opposed to weeks/months, with the "no-one shooting each other" happening a bit sooner.  

(and this isn't just directed at Dod, anyone can chip in here)

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

Ok, so how about this: if you were to be asked how would you handle the peace process, regardless of who actually does the implementing, what solutions would you come up with/suggest  to try to bring about peace in the region, with "peace" being defined as "both an Israeli and a Palestinian state co-existing with semi-cordial relations, and no-one shooting/bombing/launching rockets at anyone else". Bear in mind the "co-existing" can be a long-term goal, as in it being reached in years/a decade/more as opposed to weeks/months, with the "no-one shooting each other" happening a bit sooner.  

(and this isn't just directed at Dod, anyone can chip in here)

Ok, I've a few ideas.  

1. Palestine MUST get rid of Hamas.  A complete change of leadership within the Palestinian state is necessary.  Netanyahu has pretty much said as much.

2. Racist propaganda by the Palestinians must cease.  Children should not be indoctrinated any longer by educationa tv programs which brainwash the masses to believe that Jews are evil and should be killed.  It must be replaced by multiculturism whereby children of Palestinians and Jews can get long and live together peacefully.

3. Bombings, murders, etc...must cease for at least a period of 5 years.  There has to be real peace.  

4. The Dome of the Rock must be opened up so that all people can visit the site in peace.

5. The Palastinian govt must unanimously declare that Israel has a right to exist.

6. Palastine must release the kidnapped Israeli Soldier Hamas has held for several years and make restitution to the families of that soldier.

7. Arms smuggling into Palestine must cease.

Only then can the two parties even begin to enter into discussions for some sort of treaty to coexist.

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With absolutely no conditions on Israel?  I agree all of the above are necessary steps, but if the settlements keep getting built no peace can last.

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Perhaps a 5 year cease of new settlements being build by the Israelis.  But the Palestinians have to realize that Israel will never negotiate at the point of a bayonet.  No negotiating with terrorists.