OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Scott Terry:

Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:

I'm having bad luck finding it now. But the video I saw a few years ago looked like it was shot before cleanup began. And in the position it was in, it looked a little too surrounded in rubble to looking like part of a cleanup operation yet. But I remain open to more and more explanations or possibilities.

If you find it, post it.

In the meantime, here's an excerpt from a dated "Time" magazine article.  (And "Time" was no friend of George Bush.)

"There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet a basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. "We tend to associate major events--a President or princess dying--with major causes," says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. "If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us." In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting ...

... But there is no event so plain and clear that a determined human being can't find ambiguity in it. And as divisive as they are, conspiracy theories are part of the process by which Americans deal with traumatic public events like Sept. 11. Conspiracy theories form around them like scar tissue. In a curious way, they're an American form of national mourning. They'll be with us as long as we fear lone gunmen, and feel the pain of losses like the one we suffered on Sept. 11, and as long as the past, even the immediate past, is ultimately unknowable. That is to say, forever.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304-3,00.html#ixzz1Lys66hIi

I think that this sounds like something relative to mob mentality, but not completely. In looking at this a little differently, some people thirst for drama while others don't. Similarly, some people thirst for debate while others don't. Breaking debates down, some people thirst for debate because of their genuine desire for truth, while some others debate for a narcissistic oriented need to win. From a completely different angle, some people believe that not everything is as it seems while others take things very literally and at face value. And somewhere in the mix of all this, Elvis and Bigfoot are sitting back drinking Dracula's wine and having a good laugh as dysfunction unfolds. Trying not to get too crazy or off track with this (kinda late for that, Elvis, Bigfoot, and Dracula are pawns for purpose), but I feel there are basic splits between people here, and I suspect that most people aren't conspiracy nuts. But I can see some difficulty in discerning the best picture of proof when opposing arguments seem possible.

Ok, I just reread that and, well, I swear I wasn't smoking, honest!

OFFLINE

But I will try to track down the video I mentioned.

OFFLINE

Like the Time article said, there's always going to be some conspiracy theories eminating from major "man-caused" disasters.

If I'm remembering correctly, at the time it was published, the article said that about 35-36% believed one version of WTC conspiracy or another.

Curiously, I recall about the same percentage of Birthers in a poll conducted last month.

And even after the long form BC was produced, I'd think the % went down. Nevertheless,  Birthers are still out there.  I'd also guess that the % of Truthers has dwindled down as well.

I can't recall one conspiracy theory that ever went away.

OFFLINE

it's crap like this that discredits plausible conspiracy theories. it amazes me just how much obama has bungled osama's killing (and everything else for that matter), yet people seem more interested in this completely unfounded truther movement. do you know how big of a cover up this would have to be, and just how many thousands of people would have to be silenced, for all these theories to prove true? it's ridiculous.

OFFLINE

Scott calling it bunk doesn't make it so, as I said, that just works for your mind. It is your opinion and nothing more and based on who knows what. You refuse to answer any questions I ask. So what is the point? You become all belligerent and obnoxious. And you say I get my feathers ruffled.

Shawn that link works but is very difficult to load if your PDF program is not updated completely. I didn't get it the first time I tried and the second time it crashed me. The third time I got it. (my program isn't updated)

Amazing how the words conspiracy theorist means wacko or lunatic or false. It doesn't. That is just another form of propaganda. The official version of 911 is just as much a conspiracy theory.

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
it's crap like this that discredits plausible conspiracy theories. it amazes me just how much obama has bungled osama's killing (and everything else for that matter), yet people seem more interested in this completely unfounded truther movement. do you know how big of a cover up this would have to be, and just how many thousands of people would have to be silenced, for all these theories to prove true? it's ridiculous.

is it? You can ignore all the evidence I presented? One thing you should understand is how the CIA has infiltrated all parts of government, businesses and agencies, including all major media. They control everything. try reading the book "The Secret team" by Fletcher Prouty. If you don't think that is true, I will give you an example. In 1999 the King family filed a wrongful death lawsuit. They wanted the world to know what happened to Dr. King. They only sued for $100. Seventy witnesses testified. They described a sophisticated government plot that involved the FBI, the CIA, the Memphis Police, Mafia intermediaries and an Army Special Forces sniper team. The jury (6 blacks and 6 whites) returned after 2.5 hours of deliberation with a verdict that King had been assassinated by a conspiracy that included agencies of his own government. And you know what? Not one news agency covered it.

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Scott Terry:

Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:

I'm having bad luck finding it now. But the video I saw a few years ago looked like it was shot before cleanup began. And in the position it was in, it looked a little too surrounded in rubble to looking like part of a cleanup operation yet. But I remain open to more and more explanations or possibilities.

If you find it, post it.

I'm still hunting for the video showing the image I previously described but I'm coming up short.

I thought this was the video I was thinking of but I hunted through it in vain, but there are a lot of interesting things presented here anyways. It's this video that influences my thinking it was NOT a plane that hit The Pentagon.

OFFLINE

I think one of the images I remember seeing is displayed at timeframe 5:29 in this video. But I can't distinguish if it's a before or after the actual cleanup of ground zero.

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:
I think one of the images I remember seeing is displayed at timeframe 5:29 in this video. But I can't distinguish if it's a before or after the actual cleanup of ground zero.

They're the same images as the ones in this video.



As far as "Loose Change" goes, it's an intriguing bunch of stuff cobbled together by a couple of Canadian kids.  But, alas, it's also so full errors ... and they're spread so much throughout that it doesn't merit that much of my time.

If you want, look up "Screw Loose Change" on YouTube.

As far as whether or not a jet hit the Pentagon ... in addition to the overwhelming amount of evidence ...

Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

Read more: 9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - Pentagon - Popular Mechanics


Of course, I'd expect the Truthers to have some sort of complicated explanation of why Mr. Kilsheimer was obviously mistaken ... or a reason why he isn't credible.

OFFLINE

'Scuse me .... ^  The "Loose Change" kid isn't Canadian.

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Scott Terry:
'Scuse me .... ^  The "Loose Change" kid isn't Canadian.

I'm kinda chuckling here because one of the first thoughts that came to mind in listening to the Loose Change video is an image of an older historian & political enthusiast thinking "that's all we need, friggin children telling us what did and didn't happen!"

I had stopped paying attention to this a couple years ago because if felt like too many conflicting stories and presentations being broadcast to really form a rock solid opinion. So similarly to the JFK controversy, I'm moving forward with an open mind on the matter.

OFFLINE

Scott's got all the answers. Trouble is everything he says has been completely debunked. But none of you will take the time to check on it. Nor will he engage me in a debate. That is why it is so easy to fool the American public. they are all too lazy to research anything. Popular mechanics has all the answers, try reading "Debunking 911 debunking " by David ray griffin. You all have all the proof you need if you would only open your eyes and look critically. I am not a nut or crazy, I am a scientist and only seek the truth. And I don't give a rats ass what scott thinks.