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I was discussing some relationship self-help books with some acquaintances and I think they might have been surprised to hear me say that I’ve found them quite unhelpful by and large. They all know I’ve read so many and figured I’d think a bit more highly of them.

Well, actually, I do think such books are helpful, but really only to a minimal point. Relationships today are just so different than they were 40 years ago and it’s just gotten to be quite a convoluted mess to say the least, especially for older singles. And though these books might be helpful to some, most people don’t read them. Here’s an example I offered that simply expresses a modern problem:

Woman invites guy out to dinner and offers to pay. The guy is actually really very interested in her, but suddenly many questions flush his thoughts. Is she a ‘rules’ girl? Is she traditional or old-school? Is her offering to pay a test of some kind? If I accept the offer which includes her paying, and I don’t offer to pay, will she think I’m a cheapskate or leach? If I do offer to pay, will she be insulted? Blah Blah Blah

Well, it seems to me that if these books are helpful, then it’s probably so between two people who’ve happened to read books that offer the same dating and relationship ideas and they just happen to be generally in agreement accordingly. What are the chances of that?

So anywho, do you think self-help love and relationship books are favorable? Or do you think other means prove more successful in helping a person find a long-term partner?

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I've read a few of those books, just for giggles.  
I don't think it should be that complicated.  
If it feels complicated ... I know he's not the guy for me.  

I'd rather just follow my instincts and if it feels good and right ... I just do it.

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Originally Posted by Teri Lacy:
I've read a few of those books, just for giggles.  
I don't think it should be that complicated.  
If it feels complicated ... I know he's not the guy for me.

I'd rather just follow my instincts and if it feels good and right ... I just do it.

I absolutely agree with this. And this is a vibe I respect very quickly and react to just as quickly.

In my example of the dinner date, I told her that I wouldn't accept a dinner date from a woman whom I didn't know well enough already to know how this particular point would have play out. Maybe that's an unsociable standpoint, but then I'm not interested in what's more or less a blind date.

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As far as who invited who ... and who offers to pay:  If I invite a guy to dinner and offer to pay, that's what I mean.   I might let him leave the tip if he insists.  If a man invited me to dinner, I assume he's going to pay but I certainly show up with the ability to pay for myself if that's the way it ends up ... and I'm probably not going to think one way or the other about it or him.  It's not a big deal to me.

It's not any sort of game to me nor am I offering to pay just to be nice or in hopes he'll take the check from me in some sort of big he-man move.  Nope I mean what I say and I say what I mean ... nothing complicated with me.  (Ha .. lol ... some may disagree)

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I've done plenty of "blind dates" where I've agreed to meet a guy (and gals) I've met online for lunch in a public place  ... several actually and have met some wonderful people that way.   I've even had a couple relationship that started out online ... they've been wonderful actually.  Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I just go into it without expectations, so I'm not disappointed if there is no love connection but I've more than likely made a wonderful friend.

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Originally Posted by Teri Lacy:
As far as who invited who ... and who offers to pay:  If I invite a guy to dinner and offer to pay, that's what I mean.   I might let him leave the tip if he insists.  If a man invited me to dinner, I assume he's going to pay but I certainly show up with the ability to pay for myself if that's the way it ends up ... and I'm probably not going to think one way or the other about it or him.  It's not a big deal to me.

It's not any sort of game to me nor am I offering to pay just to be nice or in hopes he'll take the check from me in some sort of big he-man move.  Nope I mean what I say and I say what I mean ... nothing complicated with me.  (Ha .. lol ... some may disagree)

I agree with you here. But here's my point; if a guy doesn't really know a woman very well, he might not know that she says what she means and means what she says. I think this goes in both gender directions. I think it's unfortunately that there are a lot of gamers out there. This is where for me personally, I'd rather get to know a woman more casually first before considering any kind of night-out thing.

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I think if you get the "gamer" vibe ... that's your answer.  I tend to be more literal with my words and I look for that in others.  If I do not get that, that's my clue to move along as far as a "relationship" might go.  We'd be better off as friends.  If I do not take the chance with an initial meeting, I'll never know.  Why postpone the inevitable ... I just accept the date request and find out before too much time is invested.  Did not used to feel this way ... now I feel why string it along.

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Originally Posted by Teri Lacy:
I think if you get the "gamer" vibe ... that's your answer.  I tend to be more literal with my words and I look for that in others.  If I do not get that, that's my clue to move along as far as a "relationship" might go.  We'd be better off as friends.  If I do not take the chance with an initial meeting, I'll never know.  Why postpone the inevitable ... I just accept the date request and find out before too much time is invested.  Did not used to feel this way ... now I feel why string it along.

I agree, and this brings me back to a part of my point; dating these days is a convoluted mess. Many people try very hard to learn to see player behavior when they're with someone because they're so tired of getting burned. And so many of these books are geared towards -trying- to teach people to see through the games and discern compatibility. But one problem that so many people are faced with is that their ability to pick up on 'vibes' is blurred by their brains working in overdrive trying to protect themselves.

So, if a person is genuinely interested in learning how to attract or seek out a truly compatible and long-term partner, what really are their learning options? I suppose it'd be easy to say that it's necessary to get out there and just do the thing, so to say, but then keep in mind that so many people are tired of getting burned BY that 'thing'. This kinda reminds me of what someone posted as the definition of insanity; trying the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

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Learning options ?   Hmmm, that sounds like it's something that can be learned instead of something that should come naturally.

You have to be fearless ... and just jump in.  You always take the risk of being hurt or burned ... BUT you'll never know if you don't try.  I know it's easier said than done but to me the key is no expectations.  Go into a date with a new person as an opportunity to meet someone but don't let the thought "is this the one ?" take over.  Let thing evolve ... and like I said before, if its so complicated that you have doubts ... listen to those and move along.

I know its hard to find that one person you can't get off your mind ... but you'll never find her unless you take those first steps.  And I believe if you over think things, you can jinx it.  OR you're just not ready yet ...

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Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:
Woman invites guy out to dinner and offers to pay.....

.

WTF - let her, she needs to feel independent and that's okay. Equality has swung too far the other way, all the chivalry and the power - eh ? Don't question it, don't feel bad about it, if you like her you pay next time ;-)

I want to date her, I know just  the restuarant too !

Seriously tho' if these relationship self-help guru's where any good, they'd be enjoying their relationship and saying sod-em to the rest of us. The advice always seems so twee and rom-com unrealism.Besides would you rather meet somebody who is themself, or someone who is trying to be a list of good characteristics gleamed from soem books, indeed, would you want to spend a date trying to remember all that advice ?

It seems to much about how to be what someone else might like, rather than making sure you like yourself first, because trust if you like you, others will love you.

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Originally Posted by Christian Hanchard:

Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:
Woman invites guy out to dinner and offers to pay.....

WTF - let her, she needs to feel independent and that's okay. Equality has swung too far the other way, all the chivalry and the power - eh ? Don't question it, don't feel bad about it, if you like her you pay next time ;-)

I want to date her, I know just  the restuarant too !

Seriously tho' if these relationship self-help guru's where any good, they'd be enjoying their relationship and saying sod-em to the rest of us. The advice always seems so twee and rom-com unrealism.Besides would you rather meet somebody who is themself, or someone who is trying to be a list of good characteristics gleamed from soem books, indeed, would you want to spend a date trying to remember all that advice ?

It seems to much about how to be what someone else might like, rather than making sure you like yourself first, because trust if you like you, others will love you.

Hi Christian. I'm just looking for clarity on the portion of your text I highlighted above. Does the hypothetical woman here have a need to feel independent, or is she genuinely independent?

The reason I ask is because I'm personally attracted to genuine independence, and fairly turned off by one who postures it.

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I dunno.

After reading this, there's so many things to think about that my brain hurts.

I've always been happy with the "I'll do you and you do me kind of philosophy."

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Originally Posted by Scott Terry:
I dunno.

After reading this, there's so many things to think about that my brain hurts.

I've always been happy with the "I'll do you and you do me kind of philosophy."

Have you ever flipped a coin first? I have this special set of dice that.... well, they're fun regardless of the coin toss

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Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:

Originally Posted by Scott Terry:
I dunno.

After reading this, there's so many things to think about that my brain hurts.

I've always been happy with the "I'll do you and you do me kind of philosophy."

Have you ever flipped a coin first? I have this special set of dice that.... well, they're fun regardless of the coin toss

I've got a special coin.  It always comes up "heads".

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Originally Posted by Teri Lacy:
As far as who invited who ... and who offers to pay:  If I invite a guy to dinner and offer to pay, that's what I mean.   I might let him leave the tip if he insists.  If a man invited me to dinner, I assume he's going to pay but I certainly show up with the ability to pay for myself if that's the way it ends up ... and I'm probably not going to think one way or the other about it or him.  It's not a big deal to me.

It's not any sort of game to me nor am I offering to pay just to be nice or in hopes he'll take the check from me in some sort of big he-man move.  Nope I mean what I say and I say what I mean ... nothing complicated with me.  (Ha .. lol ... some may disagree)

Teri.. I agree 100%   Im the same way... If I dont have the money.. I dont go..  I wont show up with nothing..  and if he insists on paying, I always offer to pay the tip.  If Im paying for the date, I dont expect him to leave the tip.. if he offers.. I may or may not let him...