| 12/09/2010 11:58 pm |
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I've always appreciated the simplicity of acoustic instruments and fine vocal harmonies without effects in a room designed for optimum sound.
But I also appreciate technology and those who work it to their creative advantage.
When is it too much? When does it overwhelm the music it's supposed to be enhancing? |
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If you must come, bring Peace.
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| 01/06/2011 8:09 am |
Junior Member
Regist.: 12/10/2010
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Posts: 15
OFFLINE | Its probably subjective. If the pure form is live music, any recording no matter how good the equipment will not capture the whole dynamic of the performance. I think recording is not unlike photgraphy. It captures an essence of whats happening in real time. Production (the use of effects, tricks) is like the darkroom or photoshop and can either enhance or detract from that snapshot. If using effects in realtime its like adding a different lense or filter to change the composition of the image or performance. There is skill and art in that as well. When writing songs/music laying tracks, I usually use a number of snapshots. It's like a collage. Mix and match to illicit a different emotional response. At the end of the day emotions can be quite fickle. One day I might like a the way a piece feels, and the next day I might feel quite different. It can be quite frustrating. Live music is the same. There are so many dynamics going on. The skill of the musician, their mood, whats happening in the audience, and at the end of it every individual comes away with something different.
I don't think a good recording could ever compete with a good performance.People are generally social creatures. I think people get more out of the interaction that happens between audience and audience and audience and performer. A recording is more one way. Sure you might share it with a friend as you would photo's in an album, but I don't think it can carry the same weight. Saying that though I have been incredibly moved listening to music by certain performers that I have never listened to live.
I suppose there is value in both. The issue might be more about increasing social isolation and market driven music. One shouldn't diminish the other.
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| 01/06/2011 8:12 am |
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OFFLINE | Ooo . . . I like that you can actually edit your post after you have uploaded it! |
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| 01/10/2011 5:01 am |
Cool Senior Member
Regist.: 01/02/2011
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OFFLINE | This whole subject has hidden depths. What's the pure form of music? What's production and what's not?
AHB - you're quite right, it's all subjective. And nothing is straightforward. My subjective opinion these days is that less is more with production. It wasn't always the case. I used to be a recording engineer and regarded the studio as a kind of musical instrument in itself.The fact that I could make the bass drum sound like it was in a wardrobe and the snare sound like an explosion in a bathroom fascinated me.
But these days, I find myself gravitating to the music and often getting put off by production. I was listening to some music on a site called OurStage yesterday. The woman had written a reasonably good song (a bit poppy and obvious for my taste, but very good at what it was trying to do). There was a fairly sensible production except that they'd decided to put the mix through some kind of 'warm' compressor. For warmth, read distortion. The whole song sounded like it had furry edges. Most people like that sound, but to me, it's irritating and unnecessary. (And don't get me started on the overuse of compressors these days).
Like you Andrew, I prefer live music to recorded. But I also hate the sound in arena-sized venues, so the more successful acts I like, I'll never go to see. (Sucks to be me!) Give me the Wailin' Jennys in a small venue, stepping forward to the front edge of the stage and singing Long Time Traveller, a capella, without their microphones. Then I'm in heaven. |
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Collaborations and oddities: http://www.reverbnation.com/louis14
Stryngs: http://stryngs.bandcamp.com/
If you must come - bring peas!
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| 01/14/2011 7:47 am |
Junior Member
Regist.: 12/10/2010
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Posts: 15
OFFLINE | To add a bit more of a twist . . . in my opinion cultural and subcultural values come into the discussion as well as context.
The context of a small intimate venue is something I prefer.
Does production have status. Look at the big bands, the big productions, the big money . . . Does this have a higher status in peoples consciousness than listening to a stranger playing his acoustic in the park? If so why? Following this do artists think they can get a greater status through production? I find myself while trying to produce some music feeling the pressure of and always pushing for a higher standard of production!
Often the song or my feelings seem to get swept away. Or my music all starts to feel the same . . . a kind of emotional montone!
Tribal cultures often place a different emphasis on music as a part of ceremony or story! |
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| 01/16/2011 4:53 pm |
Cool Senior Member
Regist.: 01/02/2011
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Posts: 56
OFFLINE | These days, in terms of production, I really like close up and detailed. There's a guitar intro to a James Taylor song 'September Grass' which is so close up and personal - it's like he's got the guitar a foot away from me, and I can hear the tiniest movement on the fingerboard and strings. But that's as much a production decision and winding in reverb on everything.
For me production is about not distracting the ear from the sound of the instruments, and most importantly from the song itself. I get distracted by big reverbs, heavy compression and limiting, distortion, (err sorry, 'tube warmth'  . I start wondering if there's anything inside this tinsely package? But that's just the direction my taste has gone over the years.
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Collaborations and oddities: http://www.reverbnation.com/louis14
Stryngs: http://stryngs.bandcamp.com/
If you must come - bring peas!
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| 01/19/2011 9:36 am |
Junior Member
Regist.: 12/10/2010
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Posts: 15
OFFLINE | Ah . . . You're describing me now lol . . . in that endless pursuit for a big sound recorded in a tiny room trying not to wake my wife and kids! |
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| 01/19/2011 9:38 am |
Junior Member
Regist.: 12/10/2010
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Posts: 15
OFFLINE | Ah Fhaedra . . . you're a Cool Senior Member now I see . . ! lol
What's it like up there at the top of the stack! lol |
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| 01/19/2011 11:11 pm |
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Cool Senior Member
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OFFLINE |  Originally Posted by Andrew Hayward-Bannister:
Ah Fhaedra . . . you're a Cool Senior Member now I see . . ! lol
What's it like up there at the top of the stack! lol
=;-) a little wobbly actually. You know the higher you climb and all that... |
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If you must come, bring Peace.
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| 02/05/2011 10:13 pm |
Cool Senior Member
Regist.: 12/10/2010
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Posts: 58
OFFLINE | We have great live music parties here. I live pretty much in the woods and I get together with a bunch of local musicians about 4-6 times a year. The music is all acoustic and we take turns going around the circle choosing and playing/singing songs. I'm 49 and I'm the youngest, the oldest is over 80 and we all have very different musical backgrounds. Instruments include piano, guitar violin, mandolin, banjo, bass and sometimes others. We play everything from show tunes and old songs from WW2 days to Neil Young, The Who and old time fiddle music. It's great to chat with these folks about their musical pasts and you start to realize the music has changed but the life of the musician hasn't. We can all appreciate each other's different musical backgrounds and it's absolutely magical. There is no production! I also think about the pioneers who settled this cold, rugged part of the world. There was often many miles between homes but they used to get together for music parties just like we do. That was all they had. There was no Facebook, TV or even electricity. They did have square dances, even when I was a kid they used to have them at old one room schoolhouses that were no longer used for school. They were so much fun and they really brought the community together. Again, no production.
I guess where I'm going with this is that music brings people together and gives them something to share. It has for many, many years probably going back to the first time a caveman hit a hollow log with a club. For me music isn't about production. I like my music raw and human. I believe the goal of a recording is to try to capture that. When I record stuff I always find that the more I mess with it, the further I get from that primitive, human thing that I'm trying to capture. Maybe you've heard this line but it wraps it up nicely for me. When you attend a music event, even a big stadium show, nobody goes home humming the mixer settings. |
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| 02/16/2011 6:08 am |
NEWBIE
Regist.: 01/19/2011
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Posts: 5
OFFLINE | I certainly agree that it's subjective
The analogy with photography is interesting, but I think can be extended from the use of filters, lighting etc (correct mics, placement, reverb) to airbrushing (autotune)
Airbrushing creates creatures of perfection in our magazines, beautiful in many respects to look at, but not real - those women dont do it for me! However, what has happened in that industry is that people aspire to be these artificial creatures naturally - and it doesnt happen, which leads to feeling down on yourself
In music, the equivalent "airbrushing" technology exists and is available to most people. Is it wrong to use it? On one level no. Is it wrong to use it because you feel you need to to be able to keep up? Yes!
I love live albums, or albums recorded based on live performances within the studio. I'm sure there's a fair few track by track recorded songs I like too, but whenever I feel the need to find out how someone has recorded something coz I really want to know how they did it, invariably I find it was mostly live
However, many people prefer those levels of perfection when people have taken the time to do 1,000 takes and comp'd them all together - and I cant say there's anything wrong with that, but for me, it's just not what I want |
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| 02/21/2011 8:10 pm |
Cool Senior Member
Regist.: 12/10/2010
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Posts: 58
OFFLINE | I've always prefered a live take, then fix small glitches with digital editing. However, the song I'm currently working on benefits from having drums. I just don't like canned drums, I feel they sound kind of sterile and I haven't had a band available lately so I played real drums myself. I'm not very good at drums but it's a fairly simple part so I thought I'd give it a go. Needless to say, I'm now doing more than just fixing the odd little glitch! You could argue that I'm basically creating loops and you'd be right but I still think it sounds better than a drum machine. Sometimes you've got to do whatever it takes to get the job done. If I had my choice, I'd still rather cut the basic tracks (drums, rhythm guitar and bass) live with a real band. People just play differently. I tend to start thinking too much when I'm doing one track at a time like I am with the song I'm currently working on. I don't mind dubbing in lead guitar parts or vocals but that core really seems to benefit from a live in the studio situation. That elusive spark is right there waiting to be captured. |
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| 02/25/2011 6:38 am |
Junior Member
Regist.: 12/10/2010
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Posts: 15
OFFLINE | Originally Posted by Steve Ambroise:
I've always prefered a live take, then fix small glitches with digital editing. However, the song I'm currently working on benefits from having drums. I just don't like canned drums, I feel they sound kind of sterile and I haven't had a band available lately so I played real drums myself. I'm not very good at drums but it's a fairly simple part so I thought I'd give it a go. Needless to say, I'm now doing more than just fixing the odd little glitch! You could argue that I'm basically creating loops and you'd be right but I still think it sounds better than a drum machine. Sometimes you've got to do whatever it takes to get the job done. If I had my choice, I'd still rather cut the basic tracks (drums, rhythm guitar and bass) live with a real band. People just play differently. I tend to start thinking too much when I'm doing one track at a time like I am with the song I'm currently working on. I don't mind dubbing in lead guitar parts or vocals but that core really seems to benefit from a live in the studio situation. That elusive spark is right there waiting to be captured.
Is this the beginning of the transformation into Steve Rainbow Doofmeister and Grand Daddies Rave Machine. lol Anybody else.No. But you!. . . can I join? lol |
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| 02/27/2011 11:17 am |
Cool Senior Member
Regist.: 12/10/2010
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Posts: 58
OFFLINE | Hey Andrew. No transformation here. I've always been me. It's just that I have a bunch of songs that don't really fit the real bands that I've worked with. Pretty much every band I've ever recorded with wants to rock everything up and that's fine for some stuff but other songs are best left simple, like me. Also my inability to communicate my musical ideas to them is a problem. Have you ever tried singing a drum part? hahaha. |
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When does production take away from the pure form?
OFFLINE
. I start wondering if there's anything inside this tinsely package? But that's just the direction my taste has gone over the years.
