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Posted by Admin:
Buzzy, The Yuk Ro were first heard of in modern times in the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji (武藝圖譜通志) the ancient Korean Martial arts record. The were previous records but most of them are lost to time. The Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji was written by Park Je Ga and Lee Duk Mu by order of King Jong Jo. It is the first record to mention Soo Bahk, the earliest name for empty handed combat, which prompted Grand Master Hwang Kee to change his organizations name from Tang Soo Do to Soo Bahk (hand strike) Do.
No one knows the exact origin of the Yuk Ro hyungs beyond the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji. They bear a lot of similarities to the Dam Toi (Tam Tui) springy leg series in Kung Fu and there may be a common link there, but without more historical evidence we will never know.

From the MYDBTJ:
There is what is known as Yun Soo in the training methods, consisting of thirty five training methods and eighteen types of footwork. They were classified into six paths (Yuk Ro) and Ten level exercises (Ship Dan Khum). The six paths include: Woo Shin Tong Bu Choi Wee Go, Doo Mun Shim Shwe Jun Yung Ho, Seo nin Ip Ki Jo chunse, San chul Pyowol Bulsangyo, Yang pyun Joawoo Innankup, and Sal chu chingro Yang shiyo. The Ship dan khum include: Ipkijoasan hosehwese, kupbosamchu kakisangdo, ryumbokonjak jintosamhwe, bunshinshipjakup samchukadojak, kwiyunchaenyu kwonjunboseh, yuchokonjak toegwiwonro, Ipbodosoojun Jinkonjakgwicho, Bibokumkye Dokripkinban and Kungjoamasa Pyungyanggogo. The names have hidden meanings and the simplicity of the names makes understanding and memorization difficult. This I have added further explanations.”

The six paths include:
1.   佑神通臂最爲高      Woo Shin Tong Bu Choi Wee Go    Helps the spirit to circulate & makes makes one's arms the most effective
2.   斗門深鎖轉英豪      Doo Mun Shim Shwe Jun Yung Ho    The seven stars gate is like a hero   turning a hidden chain  
3.   仙人立期朝天勢      Seo nin Ip Ki Jo chunse       An immortal stands up doing a morning heaven technique
4.   撒出抱月不相饒      San chul Powol Bulsangyo       Remove, exit & embrace the moon, We mutually keep each other at bay
5.   揚鞭左右人難及      Yang pyun Joawoo Innankup       [when] holding a whip, it is difficult for men around [me] to reach [me]
6.    煞鎚衝擄兩翅搖      Sal chu chungro Yang shiyo      Killing hammer & strike & catchtechniques are like waving with both wings

Posted by Sookyoja:

dear segarra sa bom nim -

i thought you might be interested in the translations my friend (a native chinese speaker and kung fu expert) came up with for the yuk ro.  we used your translation from earlier, as well as a combined knowledge of his chinese, my korean, a few dictionaries, and a couple different copies of the MYDBTJ.  not much difference, but some....

in moo do,
pj steyer

1.  Woo Shin Tong Bu Choi Wee Go:  Nurtures the spirit to circulate & makes one's arms the most effective.
2.   Doo Mun Shim Shwe Jun Yung Ho:  The greatest gate is like a hero turning a complex lock.
3.  Seonin Ip Ki Jo Chun Seh:  An immortal stands up doing a dawn-energy heaven technique
4.  San Chool Po Wol Bul Sang Yo: Disperse outward & embrace the moon, We mutually keep each other at bay.
5.  Yang Pyun Joa Woo In Nan Keup:  [When] holding a whip, it is difficult for men around [me] to reach [me].
6.   Sal Chu Choong Ro Yang Shi Yo:  Killing hammer, full strike & catch techniques are like shaking both wings.

Posted by Sookyoja:
some more notes on the changes/translation i posted...

2.   Doo Mun Shim Shwe Jun Yung Ho:  The greatest gate is like a hero turning a complex lock.

"doo" refers to the big dipper / north star relationship, hence "seven stars gate," but the connotation of that phrase is that the north star is the "best" "chief" or "summit," hence "greatest" - unlike what i had thought "great" indicated, which was "large."  instead, it is "most important.

also, the "complex lock" or "hidden chain" also could mean "deep" lock or chain, with a slight connotation of "deep within the body," i.e.: dan jun.

3.  Seonin Ip Ki Jo Chun Seh:  An immortal stands up doing a dawn-energy heaven technique

think moo pahl dan khum #1 - an exercise meant to open the yangming channels of the body (full front).

6.   Sal Chu Choong Ro Yang Shi Yo:  Killing hammer, full strike & catch techniques are like shaking both wings.

"full strike" meaning a full power strike with follow through.  "shaking both wings" is like a "split" (yull) type of energy from the pahl gwe (ba gua), where opponent is grabbed and "opened" (i.e.: arms pulled apart).

enjoy!

in moo do,
pj steyer

Posted by Admin:
Interestingly, If you follow the translation;
1.   佑神通臂最爲高      Woo Shin Tong Bu Choi Wee Go    Helps the spirit to circulate & makes makes one's arms the most effective
2.   斗門深鎖轉英豪      Doo Mun Shim Shwe Jun Yung Ho    The seven stars gate is like a hero   turning a hidden chain  
3.   仙人立期朝天勢      Seo nin Ip Ki Jo chunse       An immortal stands up doing a morning heaven technique
4.   撒出抱月不相饒      San chul Powol Bulsangyo       Remove, exit & embrace the moon, We mutually keep each other at bay
5.   揚鞭左右人難及      Yang pyun Joawoo Innankup       [when] holding a whip, it is difficult for men around [me] to reach [me]
6.    煞鎚衝擄兩翅搖      Sal chu chungro Yang shiyo      Killing hammer & strike & catch techniques are like waving with both wings

Du mun is 2nd, Powol, 4th, Yang Pyun 5th, Sal Chu & and Chung Ro 6th and there is no Joong Ro. GM took some liberties with translating such difficult material. Also there is no Hwa Sun mentioned in the text, GM took the Kwon Bup Bo hyung and named it Hwa Sun.

As for the morning heaven posture did your Kung Fu friend specifically state that that is Moo Pal Dan Khum or brocade orientated or is that your take on the translation?

Posted by Sookyoja:
Quote from: admin on July 18, 2008, 03:01:10 PM
As for the morning heaven posture did your Kung Fu friend specifically state that that is Moo Pal Dan Khum or brocade orientated or is that your take on the translation?

it is my take on the translation for the following reasons:

the term used to denote "morning" has the connotations of dawn and energy rising.  in chinese medicine, this is referred to as "yang ming" time (large intestine and stomach, 5-9am).  the yang ming areas of the body are those that are most exposed/activated during moo pahl dahn khum #1, which also is called "two hands hold up heaven."

unfortunately, i still have no idea what types of motions in the yuk ro hyung are indicated by this.  ah well!

in moo do,
pj steyer

Posted by Admin:
Re: Kil (aka Yuk Ro)
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2008, 11:44:18 PM »
   Reply with quote Modify message Remove message Split Topic
Interestingly, when I developed our version of Joong Jol I meditated about this quite a bit. Since I was no longer allowed to teach the MDK version after leaving the federation I had some new insights to Joong Jol and interpreted Joong Jol in a unique way. Joong Jol as you know means Cut the center, yet there is no Joong Jol mentioned in the Yuk Ro, so why did GM feel the need to create a name and what relevance does the name have to an 'immortal'?

I interpreted the 'immortal' or Seon as hermit or someone connected to the universe and 'centered'. The Character 仙 Seon is comprised of two parts Hwa 化 - change/take the form of or influence (this is where it gets interesting) and San 山 (Hwa San sound familiar?) Since there is no reference to 'Hwa Sun' (花仙) in the text. You have Hwa Sun meaning flower hermit and Hwa San meaning someone that is one with the mountains or nature.  Both VERY similar in name and roots but only one listed in the text. I think GM looking at the components of Seon (Hwa San) was inspired to use the term Hwa Sun by adding Hwa (flower) to Seon (hermit or Natural man).

So now getting back to the 'immortal' or 'A person that is one with nature' That seems to be a better definition a person that is 'one' with nature is centered, possibly so centered that one cannot cut their center or as the ancient maxim;
'For one who is centered the tiger cannot insert their claws or the bull their horns.'
This is a better application of the term Joong Jol and served both as a personal goal and a tactical and strategical objective.

Sooo... now back to Joong Jol, the opening move in our version of the hyung is standing natural the arms rise out to the sides and form a triangle with the fingers (like a reverse Kong Sang Koon choon be) then the palms come together (like praying) to the solar plexus. Reminding us to be so centered not one can disconnect (cut) us from that state. Which is similar to MPDK Il Bon except the motions go outward to inward as opposed to inward to outward.

I told you I meditated on this a bit.  Wink

By actually denying me the ability to teach the MDK version I was actually forced to follow a similar if not the very same process of development GM Hwang Kee used to develop the very hyung I was denied to teach.  Many times I would think 'How would GM do this?' or 'What would GM do?' and the answers began to flow. This helped me shape our unique curriculum and gave me much deeper insights into the martial arts, the MDK and much more than if I actually stayed. So what seemed to be a sad time (my leaving) was actually the planting of the seeds for my future growth.

Ironic isn't it?

Note:I in no way present this as a dig at the federation just a demonstration as to how I got from point A to point B.

Posted by Sookyoja:
dear segarra sa bom nim -

i learned a little bit more information:  apparently, moo pahl dan khum #4 (separate heaven and earth) is associated with the stomach (one of the yangming organs).  this might be likelier as the "morning heaven technique" than #1.    it also looks a lot like do mahl sik ee bon in joong jol...

in moo do,
pj steyer

Posted by Admin:
     Re: Kil (aka Yuk Ro)
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2008, 05:50:15 PM »
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From the MYDBTJ:
The Seonin Jochunse (Heavenly Morning Sky Posture) is similar to the Jochunse (Morning sky posture). This is the procedure for performing the technique: Stretch the left fist straight out, striking the right ear, then strike downward to the left front. Walk with bent knees. (bent knees could be cat stance, or kyo ja rip if it was horse stance it would indicate mabo jaseh, I'll look into this more)

Raise the left fist straight up and bring the right fist up to a position in front of the nose. (This could be the upper cut rear hammer fist near the end of the first half)

The right foot steps out with a long stride and kicks to the front, landing next to the left foot, facing outward. When the right foot faces outward, it projects like the Chinese character (丁 : Komure Jung). This is called Sun In Bo (GM H.C Hwang mentioned Seonin Bo which he translated as 'fairy person' is Choi Ha Dan movements). The walking step should be Jun joa (Dwarf riding step). Upright walking is prohibited in Martial arts practice.

Here GM H.C Hwangs translation of Seonin bo as Choi ha dan jaesh is confusing to me. The text clearly states 'right foot lands next to the left" I will have to check the text character by character to see if the word 'next/near' is in there.

GM used this for his translation of Joong Jol so my question is does any of these descriptions sound familiar with the MDK Joong Jol techniques to you? I'm a bit rusty with the MDK version since it's been about four years since I've done it.

Posted by Admin:
Here are the 18 steps/stances listed in the MYDBTJ if anyone would like to take a crack at it. I have GM's Notes on the steps but they are a bit vauge and not specific in certian areas (i.e #6 snap kicks, 10, 18 etc) So I present the Chinese only version and see if any of you have some Kung Fu friends that can help sort it out.

练步者十八
1-甃步 - Floor tile step i.e Mountain stance (Front stance) Bow and Arrow
2-後甃步 - Backward floor tile. Cat Stance
3-碾步 - Half moon stepping
4-冲步- Jumping or skipping steps
5-撒步-(Don't know what stance or step this is this is)
6-曲步- Snap kicks
7-踏步-Stomping kicks/steps
8-敛步-(Don't know what stance or step this is this is)
9-坐馬步- Sitting horse stance
10-钓马步- (Don't know what stance or step this is this is)
11-连枝步- Combination attacks. MDK version Sam Kwon Kong Kyuk
12 -仙人步- Fairy stance/walk (Don't know what stance or step this is this is) I know in the MDK it is Choi ha dan related but I'm not sure if that's the original intent via the Chinese arts.
13-分身步 - Divide body (Don't know what stance or step this is this is) MDK version intermediate postures
14-翻身步-Turn body walk (turning motions ??)
15-追步-Purse/chase (Don't know what stance or step this is)
16-逼步- Urge(Don't know what stance or step this is)
17-斜步- Inclined (Don't know what stance or step this is this is)
18-绞花步- Strangle flower (Don't know what stance or step this is this is)

The 35 hands are even more confusing. Shocked

Posted by Admin:
From the MYDBTJ:
In the 六路Yuk ro of the Sukjun it is recorded, “The Dumoon斗門 is performed by lowering the left shoulder and fist and punching upward while the right hand is pushed horizontally out to the front and bends outward. Then bring both fists together. The Yunji bo (Continue branch walk/Successive step) is performed by bringing out the right ankle to the front and putting it next to the left ankle. The Nan chu ma (disturb pull rope) is performed by bringing the twin fingers of the right hand to the left fist in a hooking motion and moving further in a hooking motion again. The Yunjitong bujangkwon (Connect branch counter elbow long fist) is performed by bringing the right foot, along with the right hand, forward to the left in a hooking motion and moving forward again in the same manner.

‘Push the right long fist discretely, hiding the left hand. Then the left fist follows the right hand to the lower position turning into a long fist. Then hide the right hand. This process makes up the four long fist techniques. The feet must move smoothly along with the hands movements to the left and right. In general the long fist must be aligned straight along the back of the hand. Making it face the inside or outside is called Chak Kwon in martial strategy.”

Now this 'sounds' similar to the Du moon GM Hwang Kee created, actually this sounds exactly like the first half without the Do Mal Shik (Paint smearing technique). The rest of the form comprises of Ha Dan Cha Gi (Low Kick), Yup Mahk Ki (Side block) and When Jin Kong Kyuk (Side Punch) So the interesting question is did he interpret it this way:
1) GM Version Du moon Choon Be -This could be the "lower the left shoulder and fist and punching upward while the right hand is pushed horizontally out to the front and bends outward." It's a stretch though.

2) GM Version Long Backfist - This could be "Then bring both fists together. Push the right long fist discretely, hiding the left hand. Then the left fist follows the right hand to the lower position turning into a long fist. Then hide the right hand. This process makes up the four long fist techniques. The feet must move smoothly along with the hands movements to the left and right. In general the long fist must be aligned straight along the back of the hand. Making it face the inside or outside is called Chak Kwon in martial strategy.”

3) The Nan chu ma (disturb pull rope) is performed by bringing the twin fingers of the right hand to the left fist in a hooking motion and moving further in a hooking motion again. This could be the Do Mal Shik movement since it's two circular movements.

3) GM Version Ha Dan Cha Gi - No Kick described.

4) Long back fist - do mal shik (Repeat movements)

5) Yup Mahk ki & Side punch this could be:
"The Yunji bo (Continue branch walk/Successive step) is performed by bringing out the right ankle to the front and putting it next to the left ankle."

6) This could be the high block and low block movement in the hyung. - The Yunjitong bujangkwon (Connect branch counter elbow long fist) is performed by bringing the right foot, along with the right hand, forward to the left in a hooking motion and moving forward again in the same manner.

These of course are entirely loose interpretations. Basically I am demonstrating the actual text from the MYDBTJ and the movements from Gm's interpretation and trying to connect them as best as possible.

It also illustrates my point that he took many creative liberties trying to resurrect these hyung Especialy some of the other hyung which only mention a movement or two and GM version has over twenty or more movements in the described hyung. Like I said I think he divided the 35 hands and 18 steps and placed them into the various forms. I think the original forms were like the Tam tui (if not an earlier version) and were only two or three moves to be done in a loop over and over again and not like the modern hyung we are used to.


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Posted by Admin:
Buzzy, The Yuk Ro were first heard of in modern times in the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji (武藝圖譜通志) the ancient Korean Martial arts record. The were previous records but most of them are lost to time. The Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji was written by Park Je Ga and Lee Duk Mu by order of King Jong Jo. It is the first record to mention Soo Bahk, the earliest name for empty handed combat, which prompted Grand Master Hwang Kee to change his organizations name from Tang Soo Do to Soo Bahk (hand strike) Do.
No one knows the exact origin of the Yuk Ro hyungs beyond the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji. They bear a lot of similarities to the Dam Toi (Tam Tui) springy leg series in Kung Fu and there may be a common link there, but without more historical evidence we will never know.

From the MYDBTJ:
There is what is known as Yun Soo in the training methods, consisting of thirty five training methods and eighteen types of footwork. They were classified into six paths (Yuk Ro) and Ten level exercises (Ship Dan Khum). The six paths include: Woo Shin Tong Bu Choi Wee Go, Doo Mun Shim Shwe Jun Yung Ho, Seo nin Ip Ki Jo chunse, San chul Pyowol Bulsangyo, Yang pyun Joawoo Innankup, and Sal chu chingro Yang shiyo. The Ship dan khum include: Ipkijoasan hosehwese, kupbosamchu kakisangdo, ryumbokonjak jintosamhwe, bunshinshipjakup samchukadojak, kwiyunchaenyu kwonjunboseh, yuchokonjak toegwiwonro, Ipbodosoojun Jinkonjakgwicho, Bibokumkye Dokripkinban and Kungjoamasa Pyungyanggogo. The names have hidden meanings and the simplicity of the names makes understanding and memorization difficult. This I have added further explanations.”

The six paths include:
1.   佑神通臂最爲高      Woo Shin Tong Bu Choi Wee Go    Helps the spirit to circulate & makes makes one's arms the most effective
2.   斗門深鎖轉英豪      Doo Mun Shim Shwe Jun Yung Ho    The seven stars gate is like a hero   turning a hidden chain  
3.   仙人立期朝天勢      Seo nin Ip Ki Jo chunse       An immortal stands up doing a morning heaven technique
4.   撒出抱月不相饒      San chul Powol Bulsangyo       Remove, exit & embrace the moon, We mutually keep each other at bay
5.   揚鞭左右人難及      Yang pyun Joawoo Innankup       [when] holding a whip, it is difficult for men around [me] to reach [me]
6.    煞鎚衝擄兩翅搖      Sal chu chungro Yang shiyo      Killing hammer & strike & catchtechniques are like waving with both wings

Posted by Sookyoja:

dear segarra sa bom nim -

i thought you might be interested in the translations my friend (a native chinese speaker and kung fu expert) came up with for the yuk ro.  we used your translation from earlier, as well as a combined knowledge of his chinese, my korean, a few dictionaries, and a couple different copies of the MYDBTJ.  not much difference, but some....

in moo do,
pj steyer

1.  Woo Shin Tong Bu Choi Wee Go:  Nurtures the spirit to circulate & makes one's arms the most effective.
2.   Doo Mun Shim Shwe Jun Yung Ho:  The greatest gate is like a hero turning a complex lock.
3.  Seonin Ip Ki Jo Chun Seh:  An immortal stands up doing a dawn-energy heaven technique
4.  San Chool Po Wol Bul Sang Yo: Disperse outward & embrace the moon, We mutually keep each other at bay.
5.  Yang Pyun Joa Woo In Nan Keup:  [When] holding a whip, it is difficult for men around [me] to reach [me].
6.   Sal Chu Choong Ro Yang Shi Yo:  Killing hammer, full strike & catch techniques are like shaking both wings.

Posted by Sookyoja:
some more notes on the changes/translation i posted...

2.   Doo Mun Shim Shwe Jun Yung Ho:  The greatest gate is like a hero turning a complex lock.

"doo" refers to the big dipper / north star relationship, hence "seven stars gate," but the connotation of that phrase is that the north star is the "best" "chief" or "summit," hence "greatest" - unlike what i had thought "great" indicated, which was "large."  instead, it is "most important.

also, the "complex lock" or "hidden chain" also could mean "deep" lock or chain, with a slight connotation of "deep within the body," i.e.: dan jun.

3.  Seonin Ip Ki Jo Chun Seh:  An immortal stands up doing a dawn-energy heaven technique

think moo pahl dan khum #1 - an exercise meant to open the yangming channels of the body (full front).

6.   Sal Chu Choong Ro Yang Shi Yo:  Killing hammer, full strike & catch techniques are like shaking both wings.

"full strike" meaning a full power strike with follow through.  "shaking both wings" is like a "split" (yull) type of energy from the pahl gwe (ba gua), where opponent is grabbed and "opened" (i.e.: arms pulled apart).

enjoy!

in moo do,
pj steyer

Posted by Admin:
Interestingly, If you follow the translation;
1.   佑神通臂最爲高      Woo Shin Tong Bu Choi Wee Go    Helps the spirit to circulate & makes makes one's arms the most effective
2.   斗門深鎖轉英豪      Doo Mun Shim Shwe Jun Yung Ho    The seven stars gate is like a hero   turning a hidden chain  
3.   仙人立期朝天勢      Seo nin Ip Ki Jo chunse       An immortal stands up doing a morning heaven technique
4.   撒出抱月不相饒      San chul Powol Bulsangyo       Remove, exit & embrace the moon, We mutually keep each other at bay
5.   揚鞭左右人難及      Yang pyun Joawoo Innankup       [when] holding a whip, it is difficult for men around [me] to reach [me]
6.    煞鎚衝擄兩翅搖      Sal chu chungro Yang shiyo      Killing hammer & strike & catch techniques are like waving with both wings

Du mun is 2nd, Powol, 4th, Yang Pyun 5th, Sal Chu & and Chung Ro 6th and there is no Joong Ro. GM took some liberties with translating such difficult material. Also there is no Hwa Sun mentioned in the text, GM took the Kwon Bup Bo hyung and named it Hwa Sun.

As for the morning heaven posture did your Kung Fu friend specifically state that that is Moo Pal Dan Khum or brocade orientated or is that your take on the translation?

Posted by Sookyoja:
Quote from: admin on July 18, 2008, 03:01:10 PM
As for the morning heaven posture did your Kung Fu friend specifically state that that is Moo Pal Dan Khum or brocade orientated or is that your take on the translation?

it is my take on the translation for the following reasons:

the term used to denote "morning" has the connotations of dawn and energy rising.  in chinese medicine, this is referred to as "yang ming" time (large intestine and stomach, 5-9am).  the yang ming areas of the body are those that are most exposed/activated during moo pahl dahn khum #1, which also is called "two hands hold up heaven."

unfortunately, i still have no idea what types of motions in the yuk ro hyung are indicated by this.  ah well!

in moo do,
pj steyer

Posted by Admin:
Re: Kil (aka Yuk Ro)
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2008, 11:44:18 PM »
   Reply with quote Modify message Remove message Split Topic
Interestingly, when I developed our version of Joong Jol I meditated about this quite a bit. Since I was no longer allowed to teach the MDK version after leaving the federation I had some new insights to Joong Jol and interpreted Joong Jol in a unique way. Joong Jol as you know means Cut the center, yet there is no Joong Jol mentioned in the Yuk Ro, so why did GM feel the need to create a name and what relevance does the name have to an 'immortal'?

I interpreted the 'immortal' or Seon as hermit or someone connected to the universe and 'centered'. The Character 仙 Seon is comprised of two parts Hwa 化 - change/take the form of or influence (this is where it gets interesting) and San 山 (Hwa San sound familiar?) Since there is no reference to 'Hwa Sun' (花仙) in the text. You have Hwa Sun meaning flower hermit and Hwa San meaning someone that is one with the mountains or nature.  Both VERY similar in name and roots but only one listed in the text. I think GM looking at the components of Seon (Hwa San) was inspired to use the term Hwa Sun by adding Hwa (flower) to Seon (hermit or Natural man).

So now getting back to the 'immortal' or 'A person that is one with nature' That seems to be a better definition a person that is 'one' with nature is centered, possibly so centered that one cannot cut their center or as the ancient maxim;
'For one who is centered the tiger cannot insert their claws or the bull their horns.'
This is a better application of the term Joong Jol and served both as a personal goal and a tactical and strategical objective.

Sooo... now back to Joong Jol, the opening move in our version of the hyung is standing natural the arms rise out to the sides and form a triangle with the fingers (like a reverse Kong Sang Koon choon be) then the palms come together (like praying) to the solar plexus. Reminding us to be so centered not one can disconnect (cut) us from that state. Which is similar to MPDK Il Bon except the motions go outward to inward as opposed to inward to outward.

I told you I meditated on this a bit.  Wink

By actually denying me the ability to teach the MDK version I was actually forced to follow a similar if not the very same process of development GM Hwang Kee used to develop the very hyung I was denied to teach.  Many times I would think 'How would GM do this?' or 'What would GM do?' and the answers began to flow. This helped me shape our unique curriculum and gave me much deeper insights into the martial arts, the MDK and much more than if I actually stayed. So what seemed to be a sad time (my leaving) was actually the planting of the seeds for my future growth.

Ironic isn't it?

Note:I in no way present this as a dig at the federation just a demonstration as to how I got from point A to point B.

Posted by Sookyoja:
dear segarra sa bom nim -

i learned a little bit more information:  apparently, moo pahl dan khum #4 (separate heaven and earth) is associated with the stomach (one of the yangming organs).  this might be likelier as the "morning heaven technique" than #1.    it also looks a lot like do mahl sik ee bon in joong jol...

in moo do,
pj steyer

Posted by Admin:
     Re: Kil (aka Yuk Ro)
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2008, 05:50:15 PM »
   Reply with quote Modify message Remove message Split Topic
From the MYDBTJ:
The Seonin Jochunse (Heavenly Morning Sky Posture) is similar to the Jochunse (Morning sky posture). This is the procedure for performing the technique: Stretch the left fist straight out, striking the right ear, then strike downward to the left front. Walk with bent knees. (bent knees could be cat stance, or kyo ja rip if it was horse stance it would indicate mabo jaseh, I'll look into this more)

Raise the left fist straight up and bring the right fist up to a position in front of the nose. (This could be the upper cut rear hammer fist near the end of the first half)

The right foot steps out with a long stride and kicks to the front, landing next to the left foot, facing outward. When the right foot faces outward, it projects like the Chinese character (丁 : Komure Jung). This is called Sun In Bo (GM H.C Hwang mentioned Seonin Bo which he translated as 'fairy person' is Choi Ha Dan movements). The walking step should be Jun joa (Dwarf riding step). Upright walking is prohibited in Martial arts practice.

Here GM H.C Hwangs translation of Seonin bo as Choi ha dan jaesh is confusing to me. The text clearly states 'right foot lands next to the left" I will have to check the text character by character to see if the word 'next/near' is in there.

GM used this for his translation of Joong Jol so my question is does any of these descriptions sound familiar with the MDK Joong Jol techniques to you? I'm a bit rusty with the MDK version since it's been about four years since I've done it.

Posted by Admin:
Here are the 18 steps/stances listed in the MYDBTJ if anyone would like to take a crack at it. I have GM's Notes on the steps but they are a bit vauge and not specific in certian areas (i.e #6 snap kicks, 10, 18 etc) So I present the Chinese only version and see if any of you have some Kung Fu friends that can help sort it out.

练步者十八
1-甃步 - Floor tile step i.e Mountain stance (Front stance) Bow and Arrow
2-後甃步 - Backward floor tile. Cat Stance
3-碾步 - Half moon stepping
4-冲步- Jumping or skipping steps
5-撒步-(Don't know what stance or step this is this is)
6-曲步- Snap kicks
7-踏步-Stomping kicks/steps
8-敛步-(Don't know what stance or step this is this is)
9-坐馬步- Sitting horse stance
10-钓马步- (Don't know what stance or step this is this is)
11-连枝步- Combination attacks. MDK version Sam Kwon Kong Kyuk
12 -仙人步- Fairy stance/walk (Don't know what stance or step this is this is) I know in the MDK it is Choi ha dan related but I'm not sure if that's the original intent via the Chinese arts.
13-分身步 - Divide body (Don't know what stance or step this is this is) MDK version intermediate postures
14-翻身步-Turn body walk (turning motions ??)
15-追步-Purse/chase (Don't know what stance or step this is)
16-逼步- Urge(Don't know what stance or step this is)
17-斜步- Inclined (Don't know what stance or step this is this is)
18-绞花步- Strangle flower (Don't know what stance or step this is this is)

The 35 hands are even more confusing. Shocked

Posted by Admin:
From the MYDBTJ:
In the 六路Yuk ro of the Sukjun it is recorded, “The Dumoon斗門 is performed by lowering the left shoulder and fist and punching upward while the right hand is pushed horizontally out to the front and bends outward. Then bring both fists together. The Yunji bo (Continue branch walk/Successive step) is performed by bringing out the right ankle to the front and putting it next to the left ankle. The Nan chu ma (disturb pull rope) is performed by bringing the twin fingers of the right hand to the left fist in a hooking motion and moving further in a hooking motion again. The Yunjitong bujangkwon (Connect branch counter elbow long fist) is performed by bringing the right foot, along with the right hand, forward to the left in a hooking motion and moving forward again in the same manner.

‘Push the right long fist discretely, hiding the left hand. Then the left fist follows the right hand to the lower position turning into a long fist. Then hide the right hand. This process makes up the four long fist techniques. The feet must move smoothly along with the hands movements to the left and right. In general the long fist must be aligned straight along the back of the hand. Making it face the inside or outside is called Chak Kwon in martial strategy.”

Now this 'sounds' similar to the Du moon GM Hwang Kee created, actually this sounds exactly like the first half without the Do Mal Shik (Paint smearing technique). The rest of the form comprises of Ha Dan Cha Gi (Low Kick), Yup Mahk Ki (Side block) and When Jin Kong Kyuk (Side Punch) So the interesting question is did he interpret it this way:
1) GM Version Du moon Choon Be -This could be the "lower the left shoulder and fist and punching upward while the right hand is pushed horizontally out to the front and bends outward." It's a stretch though.

2) GM Version Long Backfist - This could be "Then bring both fists together. Push the right long fist discretely, hiding the left hand. Then the left fist follows the right hand to the lower position turning into a long fist. Then hide the right hand. This process makes up the four long fist techniques. The feet must move smoothly along with the hands movements to the left and right. In general the long fist must be aligned straight along the back of the hand. Making it face the inside or outside is called Chak Kwon in martial strategy.”

3) The Nan chu ma (disturb pull rope) is performed by bringing the twin fingers of the right hand to the left fist in a hooking motion and moving further in a hooking motion again. This could be the Do Mal Shik movement since it's two circular movements.

3) GM Version Ha Dan Cha Gi - No Kick described.

4) Long back fist - do mal shik (Repeat movements)

5) Yup Mahk ki & Side punch this could be:
"The Yunji bo (Continue branch walk/Successive step) is performed by bringing out the right ankle to the front and putting it next to the left ankle."

6) This could be the high block and low block movement in the hyung. - The Yunjitong bujangkwon (Connect branch counter elbow long fist) is performed by bringing the right foot, along with the right hand, forward to the left in a hooking motion and moving forward again in the same manner.

These of course are entirely loose interpretations. Basically I am demonstrating the actual text from the MYDBTJ and the movements from Gm's interpretation and trying to connect them as best as possible.

It also illustrates my point that he took many creative liberties trying to resurrect these hyung Especialy some of the other hyung which only mention a movement or two and GM version has over twenty or more movements in the described hyung. Like I said I think he divided the 35 hands and 18 steps and placed them into the various forms. I think the original forms were like the Tam tui (if not an earlier version) and were only two or three moves to be done in a loop over and over again and not like the modern hyung we are used to.

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Page 84-85 of Volume 1, in discussion about the Kwon Bup section, KJN explains/translates about Chang Song Kye and his Nai Ka style, and the Oi Ka style, as used at the So Rim temple.  

It *seems* straight forward enough, as he first states:

"Beyond reasonable doubt, Chang Song Kye was the founder of Nai Ka"

but then further along says:

"After Chang Sam Bong mastered So Rim Bup, he founded the Nai Ka system"


to which I ask:

1)  Is Chang Sam Bong also Zhang Sanfeng; ie, the man who is supposedly credited with developing Tai Chi Chuan (as I've read The Emperor explain in other posts)

2)  Therefore is Nai Ka another name for Tai Chi Chuan ... I know this isn't exactly correct, and that Nai Ka seems to be a general term for internal/soft styles, but I'd like to be explained this by someone other than Wikipedia.

3)  If 1 and 2 are correct, can we then say that it was actually Chang Song Kye who first developed the internal styles?

4)  Oi Ka, as used by the So Rim monks; would this be the style/techniques given to them by Bodhidharma?  Which Chang Song Kye didn't seem to think were very effective.  And is the monk Bal Da, which KJN mentions earlier in Volume 1 another name for Bodhidharma?


My apologies if these are all quite obvious questions which I've answered myself, I'm mainly looking for a bit of clarification, and am interested in anything anyone else might be able to add to this area of interest.

Kim

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I recently got an e-mail from Sifu Wong Kiew Kit a respected Kung Fu Master and author of many Martial arts books.  I also e-mailed Master Yang Jwing Ming but have not heard back yet?

I emailed both of these gentlemen a few months ago and was told it may take some time for them to respond due to the amount of e-mail the get and their schedules. Sifu Wong was kind enough to respond about the 18 stances.

I will post the info later on.

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Here is the e-mail Sifu Wong sent me:

Dear Dan,

Thank you for your e-mail and interesting material.  I am sorry it has taken me some time to reply,

Congratulations for your good work.  I am sure it will benefit many people.

The Chinese characters did not show up in the e-mail you sent, but I was able to refer to your post in our Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Form quoted by you.

Please note that the answers I give below are to the best of my knowledge and may be mistaken.  It is best if you can counter-check with some other masters or scholars who are more knowledgeable.

The numbers refer to the ones you mentioned below as well as those mentioned in your post in our forum.

5.  "Disperse" Step, which may be figuratively translated as retreat step. It refers to moving your front leg diagonally backward.  Suppose you are at a Bow-Arrow Stance facing north with your right leg in front.  A retreat step here refers to moving your right leg backward to south-east diagonally behind your left leg.  Your new stance may still be Bow-Arrow or at any other stance.

8.  I am sorry I do not know what this step is.

10. Hook Step.  You hook your foot into an opponent's stance.  For example, your opponent is standing at a right Bow-Arrow Stance.  You move your right foot from your right side forward into his front leg hooking his right front foot.    Your right leg is still in on the ground. You may use any stance for this movement, like a right Bow-Arrow Stance or a right False-Leg Stance.

12. Fairy Step.  It is standing upright with your feet pointing forward and about a foot or one and a half feet apart.

13.  Divide-Body Stance.  Here your stance points to one direction, but your body points to another direction.  Suppose you are at a Horse-Riding Stance with your right leg towards the north, your left leg towards the south, and your stance points towards the west.  Normally at this Horse-riding Stance your body and face will point towards the west too.  But you turn your body towards north-west, and your face towards north.  In this position you are at a Divide-Body Horse Stance.

14. Turning-Body Step.  Here you use your footwork to help in turning your body, such as when performing a Shaolin pattern called "Continous Hanging Kicks".  Suppose you face north.  You swing a high right hanging kick (like a round-house kick in Taekwondo) towards the north.  At the completion of the first kick, your turn to face south, place your right leg on the ground and swing a high left reverse hanging kick (like a reverse round-house kick in Taekwondo) towards the north.  While the second kick is still in the air, you jump up with a third high right hanging kick towards the north.  The footwork used is called Turning-Body Step.

15.  Chase Step.  You use this footwork to chase after a retreating opponent.  Suppose you are at a right Bow-Arrow Stance.  As your opponent retreats, you place your left back leg immediately behind your right front leg, and immediately move your right front leg forward.  Then you place
your left back leg immediately behind your right front leg, and move your right front leg forward to a right Bow-Arrow Stance again.

16.  Press Step.  You use this footwork to press into an opponent.  Suppose you strike your opponent with your right fist at your left Bow Arrow Stance. Without moving his feet, your opponent slants his body backward to avoid your punch.  You move your left leg forward followed by your right leg, still at your left Bow Arrow Stance, and strike your opponent again.  This is Press Step.

17.  Inclined Step.  Here your slant your body backward without moving your stance.  Suppose you are at a right Bow-Arrow Stance facing north.  Your opponent executes a side kick at you.  Without moving your feet, you slant your body backward to avoid the kick.  In this Inclined Step your left back leg is bent and your right front leg is straight.  Your body is turned towards west, but you look towards your opponent at north.

18.  Strangle Flower Step.  This is what we call Unicorn Step.  You cross your two legs, placing the knee of one leg behind the knee of the other leg. Both legs are bent.  One heel is raised.


Best wishes.
Wong Kiew Kit.

Soo.. with this new information here is the updated list:

Here are the 18 steps with possible TSD techniques I am try to cooberate this with Kung fu stances anyone can help?;
Ship Pal Yeon Bo Bup   十八錬步法 (십팔연보법)   18 Conditioning walk method
1 Chuhk Bo   甃步   척보   Develop Walk   - Chun Gul Jaseh
2 Hu Chuhk Bo   後甃步   후척보   Backward Develop   -Hu Gul Jaseh
3 Yeon Bo   碾步   연보   Wheat Grind Walk   -Half moon walk
4 Choong Bo   冲步   충보   Upward Young Walk   -All Ee Dan jumping kicks
5 Sahn Bo   撒步   산보   Scatter Walk   -Moving off at an angle to disperse attacks
6 Gok Bo   曲步   곡보   Bend Walk   -Snap kicks
7 Dahp Bo   蹈步   답보   Tread Walk   -Stomps Jit Pal Gi
8 Kham Bo   斂步   감보   Award Walk   -Collect/Take back
9 Jwa Ma Bo   坐馬步   좌보   Sit Horse Walk   -Ki Ma Jaseh
10 Jo Ma Bo   釣馬步   조마보   Hook Horse Walk   -One Leg Stance hooking into an opponents stance.
11 Yeon Ji Bo   連枝步   연지보   Continue Branch   Combinations -Sam Kwon Kong Kyuk
12 Suhn In Bo   仙人步   선인보   Fairy Person Walk   --Choi Ha Dan Seh
13 Boon Shin Bo   分身步   분선보   Divide Body Walk   Sa Ko Rip Jaseh Upper body and lower body face different directions.
14 Buhn Shin Bo   翻身步   번선보   Turn/Body Walk   T-urning moves
15 Choo Bo   追步   추보   Purse/chase   -Modified Chun Jin/Hu Jin Moves
16 Pip Bo   逼步   핍보   Urge   -Running/Knee Kicks
17 Sah Bo   斜步   사보   Inclined   -Front Side Step (angling the upper body away from attack)
18 Kyo Moon Bo   絞文步   교문보   Strange literature   -Kyo Cha Rip Jaseh
18 b) Kyo Hwa Bo   絞花步   교화보   Strangle Flower (Same)

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great info, sir.  i am meeting my friend who does kung fu and speaks chinese this weekend.  hopefully we'll get a chance to sit down and go over some of this stuff, as well...

happy thanksgiving!
in moo do,
pj steyer

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Master Styer any follow up on this?

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sorry sir - he's been out of touch for a while.  his sifu passed away in november, and he's been pretty hard to get a hold of since then.

i should call him, though.

thanks for reminding me.

in moo do,
pj steyer

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Dear Sa Bom Nim ,
I just wanted to say that your efforts to preserve the past history of the Korean martial arts is truely great in the world of Moo Do. I hope that students see and use the vast information that you are so kind to share with the martial arts world!

Steven Lemner

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You're very welcome Master Lemner.

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M Seggara and sirs, i have been reading with interest your research into the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji, i was dismayed and suprised when i visited a web site WWW.TANG SAU DAO.COM  whose grandmaster Meng Kwong Loke was until the late ninetees  technical advisor to Grandmaster KU Lee and the UKTSDF, in the history section of GM LOKES web site he states that the" MYDBTJ HAS NO PROVEN CONNECTION TO TANG SOO DO SOO BAHK DO OR ANY KOREAN MARTIAL ART" also before the war Hwang Kee learned japanese Rembukai karate with Koichi Kondo and after the war took part in competitions.  i would be most grateful and very interested to read your and fellow sirs on this yours in tang soo do

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Looks like a Chinese Hack of the MDK. He simply is using Chinese terminology instead of Korean and tossing in a few Chinese techniques.

Hack.

As for no real connection to the MYDBTJ this is more nonsense, nobody claimed a direct line of knowledge to the MYDBTJ and this hack knows that. It was rediscovered and interpreted. So he states an obvious truth.

About 15 years ago I came across a Chinese master who taught Tang Shou Tao. So this guys name usage is not original. It's one thing to see gaps in a style and attempt to fill them, it's another to fill them carbon copy everything else and call it Chinese and claim to be original.

Super Hack

**********************

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hi guys

i was just surfing the internet about korean martial art reconstruction and only found u guys. thank you mister segarra for activating my forum account. i
will try to give my honest opinion and as little bias as possible. i do northern longifst inside my family.

im a stranger from the internet so please take all of my words with a grain of salt.

the reason the fist poem was hard to tranlsate is because old chinese speaks in compound words and idioms, and has no punctuation marks.
the reason the footwork was hard to translate is because 1. these are part of old names and today modern "wushu" has systemized the terminologies and has a lot of modern made up terms not used in the past. 2. some of these footwork are real fighting stances and not for performance/training.

the text u guys posted is from the 400 year old "article about internal boxing".
tai chi claims relation just like shorinji kempo claims relation to shaolin but there is no actual connetion.
the two forms are "six roads boxing" and "ten pieces of brocade".

six roads: in northern chinese martial arts a single technique is practiced over a straight line.  this is a fist poem to help remember six sequences

godly "linking arms" is the highest (technique)
"fighting gate" ,tightly guarded, makes heros turn away
"immortal stands up" ,"face the sky posture"
make a  "hold the moon", show no mercy
"raise the whip" left and right, people cant reach (me)
"killing hammer" passes by ,"shake two wings"


eighteen footwork:
1. tile step: walk slowly and carefully on tip toes toward enemy. tile step is walking carefully on the roof.  a transitional stance not found in forms
2. back tile step: slowly and carefully back away from enemy. a transitional stance not found in forms
3. crushing step: a transitional stance not in forms. any low kick and land in any forward stance.
4. charging step: the modern bow and arrow stance. charge towards enemy
5. shuffle step: feet shuffle forward or back
6. bent step: kneeling stance for low attacks
7. stamping step: same as charging/bow stance but backfoot stamp the ground
8. pulling step: same as bow stance but back foot slides up first
9. sitting on a  horse: crouching down for low attacks
10. hanging from a horse: this is the modern catstance.
11.linked branches step: v pattern footwork.
12. immortal stance: sliding stane. the back foot ends sliding on toes next to the front foot
13. divide body stance: one person turns into two. go in one direction then explosively move ht e opposite direction. this is a transitional stance.
14. turning over step: hop  to the opposite stance, from left lead foot to right lead foot
15. chasing step: running after escaping enemy.
16. forcing step: forcing close to the enemy. this is same as bow stance but the back foot is on its toes and back leg bent.
17. side step: stepping diagonally or to the side in bow stance. this is a transitional stance.
18. twisted flower step: s pattern step. zigzagging step for dodging the enemy usually done in cat stance. this is a transitional stance.

transitional stances are not found in the forms and only in real combat, so maybe thats why u guys have problem finding people in north america who can understand it. also modernchinese government wushu replaced a lot of old terms with new modern made up terms, with a few traditional terms from muslim boxing.
there are no magic secret chinese stances in this article only basic variations of horse stance, bow stance, and cat stance from a simple and effective extinct fighting art.
i hope i was helpful to u guys. have a good day

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Hi Jim, thanks and I'm glad I got you on board. Do you think it would b possible to post a video of the 18 steps and the individual 6 paths? That would be huge if you could do it or point out a video or videos that have examples of these techniques. BTW what's your take on the 35 hand techniques.

Quote
the text u guys posted is from the 400 year old "article about internal boxing".

Can you direct me to any online source listing the article on internal boxing you mention?

Thanks again, it's nice to have a Kung Fu practitioner on board. Get ready for lots of question

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hi mister segarra,

i have no video camera. but it would be rude for me to recreate internal boxing.
the reason i wanted to post because i was very worried with u guys interpretation of its messages.
the 18 footwork i can understand because chinese styles share common footwork. most of them are already in modern korean and japanese martial arts just in different names.  the 35 basic attacks however are coded and is in codewords only.

the article was never meant to instruct anything but to give a general explanation about the style.

this is a well known article and u can find it everywhere
http://www.cnkungfu.org/data/2007/1231/article_6092.htm


my opinion is it would be a lot easier if you guys are examining the 24 longfist posture in the muyedobotonji, because it has diagrams and u can trace it directly to surviving chinese longfist styles today. theres lots of korean people also recreating it like those muye24ki people.  im not sure if the full 32 posture from the chinese army is included in the muye since i dont have access to it anymore



u can see these korean guys trying to recreate martial art from the muyedobotonji, i saw it on youtube and i find it cool
these guys are pretty much doing all the moves correctly following the book step by step

i think if u guys have interest in recreating korean martial arts u might need contact scholars and martial artists in korea. unfortunately im chinese and dont speak korean, but if u guys have any questions ill try to helpl without any bias, have a good day

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**Note these are OLD posts from the old board**
Quote
my opinion is it would be a lot easier if you guys are examining the 24 longfist posture in the muyedobotonji, because it has diagrams and u can trace it directly to surviving chinese longfist styles today. theres lots of korean people also recreating it like those muye24ki people.  im not sure if the full 32 posture from the chinese army is included in the muye since i dont have access to it anymore

Thanks Jim, I admire the 24 Ki practioners but I'm not too sure how accurate their interpretation of the 32 posture form is.

I have a manual listing the exact Chinese version of the 32 posture form. Are you familiar with the form? I've tried for years to find a video of it online, I would imagine it exists in some modern form today.

I could dig it up again and scan it if you would like.

D.S

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hi mister segarra, i know the 32 sequence by heart and i have the entire 1000 page of the treatise scanned. i meant i dont have access to the muyedobotongji anymore.
they are common northern kung fu techniques.
there are so many variations of the 32 techniques so "technically" the 24ki guys are doing it correctly. also its clear from reading the muyedobo the korean army never exactly replicated the 32 postures, only created a korean interpretation of it with korean styled techniques.

coincidentally i have to finish a college assignment about martial arts so i have to reply tomorrow, have a good day and take care
jim

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Great Jim, could you point out a video online of the 32 posture form? It was theorized it was Tai Tzu Chang Kwon, then Chen Style Tai Chi. I've been saying all along it is a different form (since I have the book) but we've never been able to nail down a video or other source on it.

You are a great help.

Good luck with the assignment.

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hi mister segarra,

sorry no one has a video of it because it is extinct. the techniques remain, not the unique 32 sequence.

the 32 postures is related to tai zu and taiji boxing. the chen family tai ji manual  even quotes directly from 32.
i also do chen style tai chi and yang style and it is commonly known 29 of the 32 techniques survives in tai chi.
taichi 24 spear is directly from the book move by move.

i memorized the 32 moves because i read the book so many times and asked so many different chinese kung fu people on their version of the techniques, then looked at my own style's way to do the 32 techniques. i memorized the entire 32 posture article.

there hasnt been much interest on the 32 postures because it doesnt look cool.

the 32 postures is a synthetic military set created by general qi combing moves from multiple styles. they exist scattered among most northern kung fu, just not as a actual form.

it was always the personal style of general qi. in fact in the last edition general qi removed the boxing section out of his book completely. thats why it was never common. only military traditions like tai zu, taiji, baji, fanzi, share relation to the 32. there is difference because it has been nearly 500 years, and modern kung fu likes to exxagerate movements for performance.


the reason people cant believe the conenction to modern northern kung fu is because people are used to the modern systemization of things, that everything must be the same and identical. and there is only one way to do thigns for an entire culture or race.  people in asian martial arts today are not used the change and difference and variety.


the way the 24 ki people do is  to me, a acceptable korean interpretation of northern hicnese martial arts. if u really  want to i can borrow a camera from a friend some time but i dont think its really neccesarry. also i think you will be disappointed because it doesnt look like tang soo do or any other modern korean martial arts.
in my opinion my way of doing the 32 postures is very biased towards my own style (longfist and tai chi) so it wont really help u guys.  i think the muye 24ki guys are good enough.

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Quote
if u really  want to i can borrow a camera from a friend some time but i dont think its really neccesarry. also i think you will be disappointed because it doesnt look like tang soo do or any other modern korean martial arts.

Jim if you could do that it would be great. I would not be disappointed because I've researched this for years and I have a good idea what to expect, I've actually learned some southern forms and also the Yang style Tai Chi Chuan so if it does not look like TSD or modern Korean style that won't disappoint me. It think you might be interested in the manual I have of the 32 postures. I am going to scan it and send it to you. It is actually a form, with movements linking each other.

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hi mister segarra,
i just took a break from doing my college assignment about kung fu(i am not sleeping tonight) and i borrowed my friend's lap top camera

//www.youtube.com/user/jingwei111 (Note this video was taken down for some reason)

i think u might recognize these moves, i have no time to do them all right now but i did some of the more recognizable moves. i hope it was helpful to u guys.

please excuse me because i am out of shape and also a beginner