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I wonder if i can have your thoughts on this?
05/13/2011 10:01 am

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Some Final Thoughts on the Death of Osama bin Laden …a letter from Michael Moore

"The Nazis killed tens of MILLIONS. They got a trial. Why? Because we're not like them. We're Americans. We roll different." – Michael Moore in an interview last week


Thursday, May 12th, 2011

Friends,

Last week, President Obama fulfilled a campaign promise and killed Osama bin Laden. Well he didn't actually do the killing himself. It was carried out by a very brave and excellent team of Navy SEALs. Not only does Mr. Obama have the overwhelming support of the country, I think there are millions who gladly wish it could have been their finger on the gun that took out bin Laden.

When I heard the news a week ago Sunday, I immediately felt great. I felt relief. I thought of those who lost a loved one on 9/11. And I was glad we finally had a President who got something done. This is what I had to say on Twitter and elsewhere on the internet in that first hour or two:

I want to point out that Barack Obama took two years to do what Bush couldn't do in over seven. That's the difference between STUPID in charge and SMART in charge. STUPID pursues two reckless wars, lets OBL escape from Tora Bora, keeps looking for him in caves and invades the wrong country. He bankrupts us to the tune of $1.2 trillion for the Iraq War (it will eventually actually be over $3 trillion), and worse, he cost us the lives of almost 5,000 of our troops, not to mention hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan – and, after all that, he STILL couldn't bring the perp to justice. In fact, in 2005, Bush closed down the CIA station that was devoted to looking for bin Laden! What does SMART do? He sends in a small elite strike force, no troops are killed, and the perpetrator is stopped for good.

I was thrilled that the Osama bin Laden era was over. There was now an end to the madness.

Being near Ground Zero that night, I decided to head over there and join with others who saw this event as a chance to have some closure. On 9/11, Bill Weems, a good and decent man I knew and worked with (we had just recently completed a shoot together in Boston), was on the plane that was flown into the Twin Towers. I dedicated 'Fahrenheit 9/11,' in part, to him.

But before leaving to go to the former World Trade Center site, I turned on the TV, and what I saw down at Ground Zero was not quiet relief and gratification that the culprit had been caught. Rather, I witnessed a frat boy-style party going on, complete with the shaking and spraying of champagne bottles over the crowd. I can completely understand people wanting to celebrate – like I said, I, too, was happy – but something didn't feel right. It's one thing to be happy that a criminal has been captured and dealt with. It's another thing to throw a kegger celebrating his death at the site where the remains of his victims are still occasionally found. Is that who we are? Is that what Jesus would do? Is that what Jefferson would do? I was reminded of the tale told to me as a kid, of God's angels singing with glee as the Red Sea came crashing back down on the Egyptians chasing the Israelites, drowning all of them. God rebuked them, saying, "The work of My hands is drowning in that sea – and you want to friggin' sing?" (or something like that).

I remember my parents telling me how, on the day it was announced that Hitler was dead, there was no rejoicing in the streets, just private relief and satisfaction. The real celebration came six days later at the announcement that the war in Europe was over. THAT'S what the people wanted to hear – not just the demise of one evil madman, but the end to all the killing.

When the atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, people didn't pour into the streets to whoop it up. Yes, people were happy that it might help end the war, but there was not a public display of "Yippee! A hundred thousand Japs have been fried!" If they had done that, well, who could have blamed them after so many tens of thousands of their sons and fathers had been lost in the war (including my uncle, a paratrooper, killed by a sniper near Manila). But the sailor kissing the girl in Times Square was on August 14th, 1945, when the Japanese surrendered and the war was officially over. That's when America went crazy with joy – not over a killing, but over an announcement of peace.

We are a different people now, aren't we? Well, sorta. There was no bloodlust euphoria on the day Timothy McVeigh was executed. We were silent. The families of the Oklahoma City dead were silent, relieved. What is the difference between McVeigh and bin Laden, other than the number they slaughtered? I wonder. I think we know the answer.

Though bin Laden is dead, we are told that Orwell's Permanent War – the "War on Terror" – must continue! Not allowed to have our V-J day and run into Times Square with exhilaration! No, there could be terrorists there. So all we're left with is to cheer the death of one evil man, and that is supposed to make us feel powerful and good. There can be no celebration for the end of the Afghanistan War because the war isn't ending. The war must continue! Even though our own CIA tells us there are no more than a few dozen al Qaeda left in Afghanistan. We still have 100,000 troops there fighting a few dozen crazies? We say we're fighting the Taliban, too, but the Taliban are Afghan citizens, not an invading force, and, for better or worse, they seem to enjoy the support of many of the common people throughout Afghanistan. (If you don't believe that, ask any soldier who has served there and seen it. Every day is like 'Apocalypse Now.' Poppies, anyone?)

Meanwhile, we – me, included – get lost in the weeds of how this one madman was killed. The official story from the Pentagon changed four times in the first four days! It went from OBL firing on the troops with one hand and using his wife as a human shield with the other, to, by the fourth day, not single person in the main house, including bin Laden, being armed when killed. Instantly, this created a lot of suspicion about what really happened, which itself was a distraction.

Here's my take: I know a number of Navy SEALs. In fact (and this is something I don't like to talk about publicly, for all the obvious reasons), I hire only ex-SEALs and ex-Special Forces guys to handle my own security (I'll let you pause a moment to appreciate that irony). These SEALs are trained to follow orders. I don't know what their orders were that night in Abbottabad, but it certainly looks like a job (and this is backed up in a piece in the Atlantic) where they were told to not bring bin Laden back alive. The SEALs are pros at what they do and they instantly took out every adult male (every potential threat) within a few minutes – but they also took care to not harm a single one of the nine children who were present. Pretty amazing. This wasn't some Rambo-style operation where they just went in guns blazing, spraying bullets. They acted swiftly and with expert precision. I'm telling you, these guys are so smart and so lethal, they could take you out with a piece of dental floss. (And in fact, one of my ex-SEAL guys showed me how to do that one night. Whoa.)

In a perfect world (yes, I would like to reside there someday, or at least next door to it, in Slightly Imperfect World), I would like the evildoers to be forced to stand trial in front of that world. I know a lot of people see no need for a trial for these bad guys (just hang 'em from the nearest tree!), and think trials are for sissies. "They're guilty, off with their heads!" Well, you see, that is the exact description of the Taliban/al Qaeda/Nazi justice system. I don't like their system. I like ours. And I don't want to be like them. In fact, the reason I like a good trial is that I like to show these bastards this is how it's done in a free country that believes in civilized justice. It's good for the rest of the world to see that, too. Sets a good example.

The other thing a trial does is, it establishes a very public and permanent historic record of the crimes against humanity. This is why we put the Nazis on trial in Nuremberg. We didn't do it for them. We did it for ourselves and for our grandchildren so that they would never forget these horrors and how they were committed. And we did it for the German people so they could see the evidence of what their elected leaders had done. Very helpful. Very necessary. Very powerful.

And for those who wanted blood back then – well, the majority of the Nazis all hanged in the end. So, it doesn't mean the bad guys get away – they still swing from the highest tree.

My own spiritual beliefs do not allow for capital punishment, and I was raised in the state (Michigan) that in the 1840s was the first government in the English-speaking world to outlaw it. So, I'm just not inclined that way. I don't believe in "an eye for an eye." I know the old book said that, but I like its sequel better (a rare case in which the sequel – like Godfather II, Star Trek II, Terminator II – is better than the original). If you don't believe the way I believe (it's also the official position of the Catholic Church, for whatever that's worth these days), then that's your right, and I understand.

Perhaps there was no way to bring him back alive – I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in that dark house trying to make that snap decision. But if the execution was ordered in advance, then I say we should be told that now, and we can like it or not like it.

For nine years I wrote and I said that Osama bin Laden was not hiding in a cave. I'm not a cave expert, I was just using my common sense. He was a multimillionaire crime boss (using religion as his cover), and those guys just don't live in caves. He had people killed under the guise of religion, and not many in the media bothered to explain that every time Osama referenced Islam, he wasn't really quoting Islam. Just because Osama said he was a "Muslim" didn't make it so. Yet he was called a Muslim by everyone. If a crazy person started running around mass-killing people, and he did so while wearing a Wal-Mart blazer and praising Wal-Mart, we wouldn't automatically call him a Wal-Mart leader or say that Wal-Mart was the philosophy behind his killings, would we?

Yet, we began to fear Muslims and round them up. We profiled people from Muslim nations at airports. We didn't profile multi-millionaires (in fact, they now have their own fast-track line to easily get through security, an oddity considering every murderer on 9/11 flew in first class). We didn't run headlines that said "Multi-Millionaire Behind the Mass Murder of 3,000" (although every word in that headline is true). You can say his wealth had nothing to do with 9/11, but the truth is, there is no way he could have kept Al Qaeda in business without having the millions he had.

Some believe that this was a "war" we were in with al Qaeda – and you don't do trials during war. It's thinking like this that makes me fear that, while bin Laden may be dead, he may have "won" the bigger battle. Let's be clear: There is no "war with al Qaeda." Wars are between nations. Al Qaeda was an organization of fanatics who committed crimes. That we elevated them to nation status – they loved it! It was great for their recruiting drive.

We did exactly what bin Laden said he wanted us to do: Give up our freedoms (like the freedom to be assumed innocent until proven guilty), engage our military in Muslim countries so that we will be hated by Muslims, and wipe ourselves out financially in doing so. Done, done and done, Osama. You had our number. You somehow knew we would eagerly give up our constitutional rights and become more like the authoritarian state you dreamed of. You knew we would exhaust our military and willingly go into more debt in eight years than we had accumulated in the previous 200 years combined.

Maybe you knew us so well because you were once one of our mercenaries, funded and armed by us via our friends in Pakistan to fight the other Evil Empire in the last battle of the Cold War. Only, when the killing stopped, the trained killer, our "Frankenstein," couldn't. The monster, you, would soon turn on us.

If we really want to send bin Laden not just to his death, but also to his defeat, may I suggest that we reverse all of that right now. End the wars, bring the troops home, make the rich pay for this mess, and restore our privacy and due process rights that used to distinguish us from any other country. Right now, our democracy looks like Singapore and our economy has gone desperately Greek.

I know it will be hard to turn the clock back to before 9/11 when all we had to worry about were candidates stealing elections. A multi-billion dollar industry has grown up around "homeland security" and the terror wars. These war profiteers will not want to give up their booty so easily. They will want to keep us in fear so they can keep raking it in. We will have to stop them. But first we must stop believing them.

Hideki Tojo killed my uncle and millions of Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos and a hundred thousand other Americans. He was the head of Japan, the Emperor's henchman, the man who was the architect of Pearl Harbor. When the American soldiers went to arrest him, he tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the chest. The soldiers immediately worked on stopping his bleeding and rushed him to an army hospital where he was saved by our army doctors. He then had his day in court. It was a powerful exercise for the world to see. And on December 23, 1948, after he was found guilty, we hanged him. A killer of millions was forced to stand trial. A killer of 4,000 (counting the African embassies and USS Cole bombings) got double-tapped in his pajamas. Assuming it was possible to take him alive, I think his victims, the future, and the restoration of the American Way deserved better. That's all I'm saying.

Good riddance Osama.

Come back to your ways, my good ol' USA.

Yours,
Michael Moore

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05/13/2011 11:46 am

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05/13/2011 1:07 pm

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What do I think?  I think Michael Moore can afford to criticize the Bush Presidency when he's sitting in Hollywood surrounded by his liberal Hollywood buddies instead of being in on the enormous task of trying to find a mass murderer like Bin Laden.  I think its easy for Michael Moore to ignore just what led to the killing of Bin Laden and say stupid things about Bush.  And I think its very convenient for Moore to leave out how water boarding led to the clue that eventually gave us our break in the case to find Bin Laden.

Imo. US troops had decided long before Obama became president that Bin Lauden was to be shot on sight.  Doubt any order was given, just a general feeling among troops I would guess.  
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05/13/2011 7:47 pm

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I guess i should have been more specific.. I dont understand the bush/obama presidency, my politics are rather more 2 party system orientated, australian style.. what i wondered, and what he voiced for me (micheal moore that is) IS why no trial? Does that not go against your constitution? Im not trying to suggest a conspiracy (some have said they wanted him dead for other reasons) what im asking is.. and what i want your thoughts on.. is.. was this a war of nations? (obviously not) was this a fair ending for the people? ok he is dead, but the war is not over? do you think some of his points on the amount of Al Quada Vs the amount of troops amoung others are a fair call?

I have said it before, im not sure i understand WHAT THE WAR is about now?? The way OSBL was "bought to justice" disturbs me,

These two passages stood out for me...
Some believe that this was a "war" we were in with al Qaeda – and you don't do trials during war. It's thinking like this that makes me fear that, while bin Laden may be dead, he may have "won" the bigger battle. Let's be clear: There is no "war with al Qaeda." Wars are between nations. Al Qaeda was an organization of fanatics who committed crimes. That we elevated them to nation status – they loved it! It was great for their recruiting drive.

We did exactly what bin Laden said he wanted us to do: Give up our freedoms (like the freedom to be assumed innocent until proven guilty), engage our military in Muslim countries so that we will be hated by Muslims, and wipe ourselves out financially in doing so. Done, done and done, Osama. You had our number. You somehow knew we would eagerly give up our constitutional rights and become more like the authoritarian state you dreamed of. You knew we would exhaust our military and willingly go into more debt in eight years than we had accumulated in the previous 200 years combined.



and

Hideki Tojo killed my uncle and millions of Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos and a hundred thousand other Americans. He was the head of Japan, the Emperor's henchman, the man who was the architect of Pearl Harbor. When the American soldiers went to arrest him, he tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the chest. The soldiers immediately worked on stopping his bleeding and rushed him to an army hospital where he was saved by our army doctors. He then had his day in court. It was a powerful exercise for the world to see. And on December 23, 1948, after he was found guilty, we hanged him. A killer of millions was forced to stand trial. A killer of 4,000 (counting the African embassies and USS Cole bombings) got double-tapped in his pajamas. Assuming it was possible to take him alive, I think his victims, the future, and the restoration of the American Way deserved better. That's all I'm saying.



In response to you Dodmeisterdude.. I guess the lines are blurred now mate, Im not sure i know what you, or your fellow Americans believe in anymore.. I thought EVERYONE had the right to a fair Trial, and EVERYONE is pressumed innocent untill proven Guilty, Now i know and you know he is guilty.. but hey, its your system man!
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05/13/2011 7:55 pm

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
What do I think?  I think Michael Moore can afford to criticize the Bush Presidency when he's sitting in Hollywood surrounded by his liberal Hollywood buddies instead of being in on the enormous task of trying to find a mass murderer like Bin Laden.  I think its easy for Michael Moore to ignore just what led to the killing of Bin Laden and say stupid things about Bush.  And I think its very convenient for Moore to leave out how water boarding led to the clue that eventually gave us our break in the case to find Bin Laden.

Imo. US troops had decided long before Obama became president that Bin Lauden was to be shot on sight.  Doubt any order was given, just a general feeling among troops I would guess.  



So the troops decided for themselves to shoot on sight? thats a scary thought Dennis, I figured the system was set in place that orders are given and troops follow? are you saying that the American forces had a "mercenary" approach to this? again, lines have been blurred! and im just trying to understand, im not in anyway a "bleeding heart" or "conspiracy theorists" I believe there is a time for war, i just wonder if that time is over now, and if perhaps it has been allowed to get out of control? If maybe the rest of the world is confused as to what the "American way" is anymore??
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05/13/2011 9:56 pm

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The American way is what we are told it is.  It can be one thing one moment and the opposite the next without anyone stopping to contemplate the conflict.
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05/14/2011 1:14 am

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I'm not a big fan of Mr. Moore.

I'm even less of a fan of things like TSA, Homeland Security, and all the rest of those things created out of fear just after 9/11.

I am a big fan of attempting to spread freedom across the globe.

I am not a big fan of the way things were handled in Iraq and A-stan after we gained control.

I can see the difference between Hideki Tojo and UBL.

I can see the need to eliminate an individual such as UBL and forego a trail that would give the man a platform.

I cannot see the need to celebrate his death.

That's my thoughts.

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05/14/2011 2:39 am

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Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:
I'm not a big fan of Mr. Moore.

I'm even less of a fan of things like TSA, Homeland Security, and all the rest of those things created out of fear just after 9/11.

I am a big fan of attempting to spread freedom across the globe.

I am not a big fan of the way things were handled in Iraq and A-stan after we gained control.

I can see the difference between Hideki Tojo and UBL.

I can see the need to eliminate an individual such as UBL and forego a trail that would give the man a platform.

I cannot see the need to celebrate his death.

That's my thoughts.



I Like this answer.. but what are the differences between Hideki Tojo and UBL? were they not both mass murderers of innocent people and fanatical in their cause? I don't know how i feel about Mr Moore, I do know that what he says makes more sense to ME, more so then the visions I am seeing from acress the globe! ?
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05/14/2011 2:41 am

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
The American way is what we are told it is.  It can be one thing one moment and the opposite the next without anyone stopping to contemplate the conflict.


Does the Constitution exist anymore in the sense that it used to?
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05/14/2011 3:15 am

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Originally Posted by Chelsea Cullen:

So the troops decided for themselves to shoot on sight? thats a scary thought Dennis, I figured the system was set in place that orders are given and troops follow? are you saying that the American forces had a "mercenary" approach to this?

  I personally think the answer to all these questions is...Yes.  I cant prove it.  No one would ever admit it either.  But it wouldnt surprise me in the least.  

Its not unprecedented.  I think many soldiers over the years have taken this approach.  Sometimes prisoners got killed because the soldiers didnt have any way to incarcerate them at the time.  PRobably happened in every war we ever had.  Probably some Aussies have done the same thing in our past.  Thats why war sux so bad.  ITs why we dont want to go to war except as a last resort.

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05/14/2011 11:40 am

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:


Its not unprecedented.  I think many soldiers over the years have taken this approach.  Sometimes prisoners got killed because the soldiers didnt have any way to incarcerate them at the time.  PRobably happened in every war we ever had.  Probably some Aussies have done the same thing in our past.  Thats why war sux so bad.  ITs why we dont want to go to war except as a last resort.



From what I understand killing Japanese prisoners was somewhat common in WWII due to the logistical challenges of extracting prisoners from war zone and racism.  None the less, this kind of situation didn't exist with the raid.
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05/14/2011 11:49 am

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Originally Posted by Chelsea Cullen:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
The American way is what we are told it is.  It can be one thing one moment and the opposite the next without anyone stopping to contemplate the conflict.


Does the Constitution exist anymore in the sense that it used to?



It physically does, however its kind of like the bible.  Many Christians claim to follow it to the word, however their actions portray an entirely different message.
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05/14/2011 5:42 pm

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

From what I understand killing Japanese prisoners was somewhat common in WWII due to the logistical challenges of extracting prisoners from war zone and racism.  None the less, this kind of situation didn't exist with the raid.

Thats all true I think.  One reason I suspect we killed Bin Laden was , quite frankly, because of Eric Holder our Attorney General.  I would imagine many in the military dislike how he wants to let these terrorists (who admit to killing Americans and admit to calling for terror to be spread in this country) lawyer up.  They dislike the ACLU and how Eric Holder wanted to drag these things through the courts in NYC (which could take years).  Also, the trial run for a terrorist in recent months wound up having hundreds of charges dropped on technicalities and I think he was finally convicted on a single charge.  I also think most military people who are putting their lives on the line day in and day out to find these killers would rather trust the military tribunals (aka Nuremberg)  than trust the pitifully incompetent Eric Holder.  

It may not be fair.  It may not be just.  But in the heat of combat, after having been shot at, I bet our troops make these decisions quite often.
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05/14/2011 7:40 pm

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

From what I understand killing Japanese prisoners was somewhat common in WWII due to the logistical challenges of extracting prisoners from war zone and racism.  None the less, this kind of situation didn't exist with the raid.

Thats all true I think.  One reason I suspect we killed Bin Laden was , quite frankly, because of Eric Holder our Attorney General.  I would imagine many in the military dislike how he wants to let these terrorists (who admit to killing Americans and admit to calling for terror to be spread in this country) lawyer up.  They dislike the ACLU and how Eric Holder wanted to drag these things through the courts in NYC (which could take years).  Also, the trial run for a terrorist in recent months wound up having hundreds of charges dropped on technicalities and I think he was finally convicted on a single charge.  I also think most military people who are putting their lives on the line day in and day out to find these killers would rather trust the military tribunals (aka Nuremberg)  than trust the pitifully incompetent Eric Holder.  

It may not be fair.  It may not be just.  But in the heat of combat, after having been shot at, I bet our troops make these decisions quite often.



It would be unfortunate if they lost faith in the due process entitled to all US detainees, citizens or otherwise.  It would also be a blatant violation of when they swore:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same ; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."  
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05/14/2011 7:53 pm

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:


Its not unprecedented.  I think many soldiers over the years have taken this approach.  Sometimes prisoners got killed because the soldiers didnt have any way to incarcerate them at the time.  PRobably happened in every war we ever had.  Probably some Aussies have done the same thing in our past.  Thats why war sux so bad.  ITs why we dont want to go to war except as a last resort.



From what I understand killing Japanese prisoners was somewhat common in WWII due to the logistical challenges of extracting prisoners from war zone and racism.  None the less, this kind of situation didn't exist with the raid.



We killed Germans too on a regular basis. The racism thing with the Japanese is vastly overplayed. You, by default, have to hate a person that is trying to kill you/person you are trying to kill.
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