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Most of us first came together on various incarnations of Myspace history groups, however over the years we have moved away from discussing the past in favour of current events.  While I find great satisfaction in some of those discussions, I think it would be interesting to revisit the disciple that initiated the predecessor to this group.  In this case, I would like to discuss an important figure in ancient Chinese history, Cao Cao (pronounced tsɑ̌ʊ tsɑ́ʊ).

Cao Cao, born 155 AD, was both an influential bureaucrat and formidable general in service to Emperor Xian.  Some historians view him as reformer who insisted on upholding the law equality against aristocracy and peasants while others portray him as a brutal warlord willing to do anything to rise in power.

Do you think the villainization of Cao Cao in culture (namely as a result of the famous ancient Chinese novel The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, where he was one of the major antagonists) is a fair or reasonable depiction?  Why or why not?  The Wiki entry on Cao Cao is linked below as a starting point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
Do you think the villainization of Cao Cao in culture (namely as a result of the famous ancient Chinese novel The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, where he was one of the major antagonists) is a fair or reasonable depiction?  Why or why not?  The Wiki entry on Cao Cao is linked below as a starting point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao

Wow!

I have to admit that Chinese history is so far out of my wheelhouse that its really hard for me to discuss this topic very much.  I'd never heard of Cao Cao before.  So all I have to go by is the Wiki article.

Here's what I got from that article:

"Although often portrayed as a cruel and merciless tyrant, Cao Cao has also been praised as a brilliant ruler and military genius who treated his subordinates like his family. He was also skilled in poetry and martial arts and wrote many war journals."

This puts me in mind of some other rulers who were both merciless as well as made great achievements.  

King Herod the great is described as "a madman who murdered his own family and a great many rabbis."  He is also known for his colossal building projects in Jerusalem and elsewhere, including his expansion of the Second Temple in Jerusalem (sometimes referred to as Herod's Temple) and the construction of the port at Caesarea Maritima.

Vlad the Impaler is remembered primarily for the impaling of enemies. Already during his lifetime, his reputation of excessive cruelty spread abroad, to Germany and elsewhere in Europe. The total number of his victims is estimated in the tens of thousands.  However Romanian and Slavic documents starting with 1481 and on portray Vlad as a hero, a true leader, that used harsh yet fair methods to reclaim the country from the corrupt and rich boyars.

Peter the Great acted ruthlessly toward those who rebelled against him.  In the aftermath pf rebellion of the Streltsy, 1,200 of the rebels were tortured and executed, and Peter ordered that their bodies be publicly exhibited as a warning to future conspirators.  Yet he is viewed today as a great ruler who expanded the Tsardom into a huge empire that became a major European power and who led a cultural revolution that replaced the traditionalist and medieval social and political system with a modern, scientific, Europe-oriented, and rationalist system.

Napoleon Bonaparte left a dynasty which ruled France again and ended lawlessness and disorder in post-Revolutionary France.  However he was not significantly troubled when faced with the prospect of war and death for thousands.  He reinstated slavery in Haiti, plundered conquered territories, bankrupt his country, lost overseas colonies and was the cause of possibly over 6 million deaths.

So it seems that Cao Cao was part of a long line of powerful leaders who achieved great things, yet also was considered merciless and tyrannical.

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Thats probably a reasonable assessment.  My admiration of the great strategist Zhuge Liang (who served Cao Cao's rival Liu Bei) partially biases me against Cao Cao.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Liang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Bei

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Basically from what I read, Cao Cao must have been smart, but cruel.  Probably not a very benevolent person.  Likely would have had nothing in common with Buddha, Confucius or Jesus.  

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
Basically from what I read, Cao Cao must have been smart, but cruel.  Probably not a very benevolent person.  Likely would have had nothing in common with Buddha, Confucius or Jesus.  

I wouldn't expect him to be much like Jesus, and I'm not sure how much influence Buddhism, Confucianism, or Taoism had on him.

What do you think of Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang?  While I think all three had some virtue (as bad as Cao Cao was, he was also fiercely loyal to his followers and believed in fair enforcement of the law to all castes), they all also suffered flaws.  I suppose that what happens when one places pragmatism so much higher than morality.  That said, I don't suspect one would last long in their time without that same pragmatism.  For some reason it seems somewhat Roman to me.

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lol if that was a youtube video I would post a comment saying "Thumbs up if you learned this from Dynasty Warriors." I own like every version of that game.

"revisit the disciple that initiated the predecessor to this group."

What do you mean by that? Who was the disciple.?

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Originally Posted by Douglas Shireman:
lol if that was a youtube video I would post a comment saying "Thumbs up if you learned this from Dynasty Warriors." I own like every version of that game.

"revisit the disciple that initiated the predecessor to this group."

What do you mean by that? Who was the disciple.?

I've never played Dynasty Warriors, are Cao Cao or Liu Bei characters?

It should have read discipline.  It would appear that I'm borderline illiterate...

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

It should have read discipline.  It would appear that I'm borderline illiterate...

And yet you managed to spell "illiterate" right... Always thought that words like "illiterate", "dyslexic" "stammer" and "lisp" were cruel to the ppl who suffered from them as they seem designed to draw attention to the condition when they tried saying/spelling them :-P

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
What do you think of Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang?

Dude!  You're forcing me to do homework.  Lol!  I never heard of any of these guys.
Ok, Lets see.  

Liu Bei was a warlord, military general and later the founding emperor of the state of Shu Han during the Three Kingdoms era of Chinese history. (Of course now I'm gonna need to know a bit about shu Han and the Three Kingdoms era).  Lol.  

Shu Han was one of the three states competing for control of China during the Three Kingdoms period, after the fall of the Han Dynasty.

The Three Kingdoms (Wei, Shu, and Wu. ) period was a period in Chinese history, part of an era of disunity called the "Six Dynasties" following immediately the loss of de facto power of the Han Dynasty rulers. In a strict academic sense it refers to the period between the foundation of the state of Wei in 220 and the conquest of the state Wu by the Jin Dynasty in 280.

At least thats what Wikipedia says.  I'm not gonna look up the Six dynasties.  But it's starting to sound like maybe the major ruler dies and three kingdoms were fighting for supremacy.  

It seems that there was some literature written in which Liu Bei was portrayed as a benevolent, humane man.  Grew up poor.  Lost his father as a child.  Did menial work to survive.  Then he was sponsored by a rich relative and went to study under a scholar.  there he met a future warlord and they became friends.  

Then the article sez he goes to form an army to help suppress the Yellow Turban Rebellion.  I dunno how he went from being a mere student to being the leader of an army though.  But he obviously was an ambitious person.  Probably lucky too.

He had some success during that rebellion and then he goes on to join up with his friend who had become a warlord at this point.  They ally with one another and this likely sets his course to prominence and fame.  (I know I'm glossing over a ton of info here).

Zhuge Liang was a chancellor of the state of Shu Han during the Three Kingdoms period of Chinese history. Apparently he is seen as the greatest and most accomplished strategist of his era.

You must have the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms.  How did you become interested in this culture or era of history?  

Do you watch any of the older black and white films made in China or Japan?  I've watched a few.  They are dubbed of course but are pretty cool.

Of course most know about the Seven Samurai by Akira Kurosawa.  Thats the first one I saw.  I got interested in it after learning that the Magnificent Seven was based on this film and it is a good one!  

I like Rashomon, Yojimbo, Throne of Blood, and Raise the Red Lantern.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:

Do you watch any of the older black and white films made in China or Japan?  I've watched a few.  They are dubbed of course but are pretty cool.

There's actually a lot of good historical/pseudo-historical films coming out of china these days, you have to know where to look for them though. A good few films of the style of "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" or "Hero" from a few years back, and a few that have battle scenes that would rival anything you'd see in LOTR, like Red Cliff:



Obviously they're not going to be 100% historically accurate, but they wouldn't be any worse than "Troy" or "300" anyway...

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:

Do you watch any of the older black and white films made in China or Japan?  I've watched a few.  They are dubbed of course but are pretty cool.

There's actually a lot of good historical/pseudo-historical films coming out of china these days, you have to know where to look for them though. A good few films of the style of "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" or "Hero" from a few years back, and a few that have battle scenes that would rival anything you'd see in LOTR, like Red Cliff:



Obviously they're not going to be 100% historically accurate, but they wouldn't be any worse than "Troy" or "300" anyway...

Ding ding, we have a winner!

Red Cliff was a great John Woo movie based off the Battle of Red Cliff in the famous, somewhat historically accurate novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms.  From what I've been told, Woo took some liberties when interpreting the book, which in turn took some liberties in interpreting history, but its still an incredible film.  I particularly love the detailed attention to strategy and tactics.  It also makes Zhuge Liang look like the ultimate bad-ass stratagem.  If you have Netflix they have the sorter (2.5 hour) version on instant streaming, however if you can get your hands on the full version its much better (the 2.5 hour one seems rushed, the full version allows the audience to better understand the complexity of the story Woo tried to weave).  I've seen a couple other movies based off Romance of the Three Kingdoms, but Red Cliff is by and far the best (I hear there is a ~80 hour miniseries that is supposed to do a great job of telling to story of RTK, however I've yet to get my hands on it).

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:


You must have the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms.  How did you become interested in this culture or era of history?  

Do you watch any of the older black and white films made in China or Japan?  I've watched a few.  They are dubbed of course but are pretty cool.

Of course most know about the Seven Samurai by Akira Kurosawa.  Thats the first one I saw.  I got interested in it after learning that the Magnificent Seven was based on this film and it is a good one!  

I like Rashomon, Yojimbo, Throne of Blood, and Raise the Red Lantern.

I'm yet to read Romance of the Three Kingdoms, although its on my to-do list.  I got into this time period through a combination of interest in an area of history I poorly understood (I'm strongest in European medieval history, so I took that time period and looked to another part of the world) and because I followed an instructors suggestion and read Outlaws of the Marsh (ie Water Margin, a very famous medieval Chinese epic with a much weaker historical basis).  I once tried to read the famous Japanese historical epic Tale of Heike, however I hated the structure and eventually gave up on it.

Kurosawa was a brilliant director who produces some incredible films (which had a surprising influence on American film making).  Not only was The Magnificent Seven based off Seven Samurai, A Fistful of Dollars (Clint Eastwood) was adapted from Yojimbo (with surprisingly little change, many of the lines are even directly translated from Japanese) and some elements from Hidden Fortress can be seen in Star Wars.  Toshirô Mifune's acting didn't hurt either.  If you like those kinds of movies, I recommend Miike's 13 Assassins, I've never seen a movie where I've felt such contempt for the villain.

What do you think of Kurosawa's interpretation of Shakespeare (Ran was based on King Lear while Throne of Blood was Macbeth)?

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:


You must have the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms.  How did you become interested in this culture or era of history?  

Do you watch any of the older black and white films made in China or Japan?  I've watched a few.  They are dubbed of course but are pretty cool.

Of course most know about the Seven Samurai by Akira Kurosawa.  Thats the first one I saw.  I got interested in it after learning that the Magnificent Seven was based on this film and it is a good one!  

I like Rashomon, Yojimbo, Throne of Blood, and Raise the Red Lantern.

I'm yet to read Romance of the Three Kingdoms, although its on my to-do list.  I got into this time period through a combination of interest in an area of history I poorly understood (I'm strongest in European medieval history, so I took that time period and looked to another part of the world) and because I followed an instructors suggestion and read Outlaws of the Marsh (ie Water Margin, a very famous medieval Chinese epic with a much weaker historical basis).  I once tried to read the famous Japanese historical epic Tale of Heike, however I hated the structure and eventually gave up on it.

Kurosawa was a brilliant director who produces some incredible films (which had a surprising influence on American film making).  Not only was The Magnificent Seven based off Seven Samurai, A Fistful of Dollars (Clint Eastwood) was adapted from Yojimbo (with surprisingly little change, many of the lines are even directly translated from Japanese) and some elements from Hidden Fortress can be seen in Star Wars.  Toshirô Mifune's acting didn't hurt either.  If you like those kinds of movies, I recommend Miike's 13 Assassins, I've never seen a movie where I've felt such contempt for the villain.

What do you think of Kurosawa's interpretation of Shakespeare (Ran was based on King Lear while Throne of Blood was Macbeth)?

Ooo....I've only seen it once and it was years ago.  I'd have to watch again to comment.

I'll also have to check out Red Cliff.  

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:

Do you watch any of the older black and white films made in China or Japan?  I've watched a few.  They are dubbed of course but are pretty cool.

There's actually a lot of good historical/pseudo-historical films coming out of china these days, you have to know where to look for them though. A good few films of the style of "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" or "Hero" from a few years back, and a few that have battle scenes that would rival anything you'd see in LOTR, like Red Cliff:



Obviously they're not going to be 100% historically accurate, but they wouldn't be any worse than "Troy" or "300" anyway...

A lot of my friends raved about Crouching Tiger but I've never seen it.  (Westerns and Film Noir are my favorites).  But I do enjoy some of the films of that culture so maybe I should give it a try.

I think the 1st film based on Japan was Shogun.  I saw it when it was originally released on tv and it was good.  Then years later I found out that Seven Samurai was the inspiration of the Magnificent Seven (a favorite Western), so I gave it a try and LOVED it.  

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I saw a Japanese film just the other night and I couldnt remember its name so I had to look it up.  Took a long time but I found it.

Sansho the Bailiff. (by Kenji Mizoguchi)

(From Amazon.com) Set in the 11th century, this critically acclaimed film tells a compelling story of injustice and suffering. When a kindly governor is exiled, his wife is forced into prostitution, and his son and daughter are sold into slavery to the tyrannical bailiff Sansho. With authentic sets and rich imagery, Mizoguchi chillingly re-creates the barbaric feudal society.

EXCELLENT film imo.  Not a lot of kung fu martial arts, but the story was terrific.  Very sad at the end and I highly recommend it.