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Originally Posted by Mary Kirkpatrick:

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

Originally Posted by Mary Kirkpatrick:
Of course, I already feel that we SHOULD NOT be in the war that we're in...but that's another whole argument!

afghanistan?

Yes

so just curious, not to get off on a wild tangent, but would have been your answer following 9/11?

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Originally Posted by David Macleod:
I don't think we should have invaded Iraq or Afghanistan but those in power want the money they get from the rebuilding of Iraq and the oil pipeline they can run through (in theory) Afghanistan.

I've heard this hypothesis before, but I'm not sure that is very cost-effective.  

The big five oil companies made over $123 billion in net profits in 2007.  As of June 1, 2010 both wars had a combined estimated cost of over 1 trillion dollars, separately the Iraq War had an estimated cost of 725 billion dollars and the Afghanistan War had an estimated cost of 275 billion dollars. The number is based on US Congress appropriations and does not include future medical care for soldiers and veterans wounded in the war.

We've pulled combat troops out of Iraq, do not control their oil fields and the price of oil is much higher now than it was when we invaded.  

So if our govt declared war simply to make a profit and grab the oil fields...then they truly were stupid.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:

Originally Posted by David Macleod:
I don't think we should have invaded Iraq or Afghanistan but those in power want the money they get from the rebuilding of Iraq and the oil pipeline they can run through (in theory) Afghanistan.

I've heard this hypothesis before, but I'm not sure that is very cost-effective.  

The big five oil companies made over $123 billion in net profits in 2007.  As of June 1, 2010 both wars had a combined estimated cost of over 1 trillion dollars, separately the Iraq War had an estimated cost of 725 billion dollars and the Afghanistan War had an estimated cost of 275 billion dollars. The number is based on US Congress appropriations and does not include future medical care for soldiers and veterans wounded in the war.

We've pulled combat troops out of Iraq, do not control their oil fields and the price of oil is much higher now than it was when we invaded.  

So if our govt declared war simply to make a profit and grab the oil fields...then they truly were stupid.

not to mention, most of the largest oil companies in the u.s. aren't u.s. owned (like everything else these days).

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Yes. You're Govt were stupid but then so was/are ours so there we go.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

Originally Posted by Mary Kirkpatrick:

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

Originally Posted by Mary Kirkpatrick:
Of course, I already feel that we SHOULD NOT be in the war that we're in...but that's another whole argument!

afghanistan?

Yes

so just curious, not to get off on a wild tangent, but would have been your answer following 9/11?

I can't speak for Mary but what I would have done is not lie about the like between Al Qaeda and Iraq and WMD. I would not have invaded Iraq, a Country that was actually held together by Saddam - I know he was evil but so are the Saudi's and nobody is invading their Country.

I would also not have invaded Afghanistan. Everybody knows that there has never been a successful invasion and there never will be. The Country is simply far too splintered with tribal factions for us to make any kind of sense out of. Let's not forget that apart for the Taliban giving Bin Laden a base to operate from, (or is he in Pakistan?) they had no link to 9/11.

Seeing as how all Bin Laden had in Afghanistan was a place to operate from and to train his 'soldiers' an invasion is an incredible over reaction.  The Taliban like Saddam are evil but they held the Country together and since we have invaded poppy production has sky rocketed.


So since 9/11 all that has happened is that two Countries that either had very little or nothing to do with the attacks have been invaded, countless lives have been lost, infrastructure destroyed, drug production increased and the Country where nearly all the 9/11 terrorists came from has remained untouched. Guantanimo Bay - didn't think I'd leave that out did ya! Increased border paranoia in the USA.

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There was a lot of deception leading up to our invasion of Iraq.  Keep in mind, we, the people, had no idea of any of that.  We assumed that Sadaam did have WMDs and the capability of delivering them in unmanned drones (or whatever).  (I also blame Paul Wolfowitz and don Rumsfeld).

But here's the biggest blunder of all!  Bush didnt need to use WMDs as an excuse to invade!  Iraq had violated the UN sanctions.  It had also fired missiles at US jets (an act of war) who were trying to enforce the UN's no-fly zone.

Either 1 of those reasons were enough to invade and remove him from power.  And I said so at the time.

I cant understand how you would refuse to invade Afghanistan.  For one thing, you are mistaken.  there have been at least 2 successful invasions of that country.  USSR invaded them and stayed there for years.  They overthrew the current govt structure before eventually leaving.  

The US has successfully invaded and are still operating there.  We have overthrown the Taliban govt and installed another govt (though it looks pretty corrupt as well).  Still, things are better there, especially for the women.

For another thing, giving Al Quaida safe haven is all the reason we needed to invade.  That we havent invaded other countries (yet) doesnt matter.  We think Bin Lauden and his vermin were in Afghanistan, and we went after him...like we said we'd do.  And it was not an overreaction.  It is inconceivable that after 9-11, you would favor leaving Bin Lauden alone to operate in Afghanistan simply because the cruel Taliban was holding that country together.  Or that you dont think it can be successfully invaded.  Or you worry about poppies.

You think we gave a rip about any of that?  You have apparently forgotten how Americans cried out for vengeance after 9-11.  And right or wrong, one thing you never want to do, is sucker punch the United States.  We have always fought back.  We kicked Japan's ass, for the same reason we crushed Afghanistan's govt.

Lastly, the campaign is not over.  I personally favor the way we are fighting that war now than when Bush was in office.  We are using unmanned drones and special forces now and are successfully killing the hell out of the enemy.  Yeah, we're still losing troops, but that's war.  Its why you do this dirty job as a last resort.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
It is inconceivable that after 9-11, you would favor leaving Bin Lauden alone to operate in Afghanistan simply because the cruel Taliban was holding that country together.  

or we could've launched cruised missile attacks against unoccupied tents, like we tried to previously.

i'm not even getting into iraq, because we've been down that route a thousand times, but i think the sentiment that we should have never gone into afghanistan is larely the result of the manner in which the war has drug on. i don't think there was a single country in the west who objected to our right to invade that country following 9.11, and i just don't see how us doing nothing would have been a positive.

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interestingly, there have been military studies that show women are more psychologically resilient to the stresses of combat deployments, which may account for their lower suicide rate. however, this may also be attributed to the fact that they are currently less likely to see "frontline duties," i.e. less likely to witness the horrors of war.

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The Soviets occupying a Country for years whilst all the time having to fight to stay there before eventually giving up is hardly a success.

The invasion of Afghanistan was a stupid, gung ho over reaction. If we had used unmanned drones and special forces in the first instance we would not be in the same depth of **** that we find ourselves in now. (I worded my previous post badly with regard to Afghanistan/Bin Laden so hopefully that clears that up.)

I also did not say I was worried about the poppies. What I said is that poppy production has sky rocketed since the invasion. I pointed this out as an aside to the fact that the Americans have installed a corrupt Govt, that every time we leave an area, town, village, settlement having supposedly removed the Taliban, the Taliban move back in.

Nobody in the whole **** God forsaken Country trusts us or their Govt. We are fighting a war we cannot possibly win.

Does this scenario remind you of a previous American invasion in Asia?

Now I'm all for removing the likes of Saddam and the Taliban from the face of the earth. However one thing America has yet to learn is that you cannot go invade a Country, remove their Govt, make them take one just like yours and expect the people to like it. Change cannot be forced on others. The American way is not the right way for the rest of the world. Thinking it is is incredibly arrogant.

I really don't think the average American gave a 'rip' about how Iraq or Afghanistan was held together. I think all they cared about was bloody vengeance and damn the consequences. It's an understandable reaction and one that most people would have but to take that immediate reaction and to extrapolate it out to a Govt level and to keep the bloody vengeance ball rolling the way your (and our) Govt did was incredibly stupid and arrogant.

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dave, what you mentioned is exactly what we did in the beginning, and it toppled the taliban regime. it's the nation building that lands us in trouble.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
if a chick has the balls and motivation to hack it, then more power to her, but don't lower the bar for anyone.

To get back to the point - Agreed!  I am a feminist and a pacifist so my personal opinion is a little complicated but equality should be equal in all ways.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
dave, what you mentioned is exactly what we did in the beginning, and it toppled the taliban regime. it's the nation building that lands us in trouble.

Hmm. My memory isn't what it used to be and it wasn't that good to start with. However is it possible that we used the drones, special forces as the pre cursor to an invasion as opposed to targeting training camps? Like I said earlier America can't rebuild the word in it's own image and expect it to work.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
interestingly, there have been military studies that show women are more psychologically resilient to the stresses of combat deployments, which may account for their lower suicide rate. however, this may also be attributed to the fact that they are currently less likely to see "frontline duties," i.e. less likely to witness the horrors of war.

I would say so. Women being further from the front line is likely to reduce the psychological impact warfare takes on them. Or........if we take the supposed man flu as an example and apply the same logic to all things then perhaps women are psychologically stronger than men on all levels.

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Originally Posted by David Macleod:

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
dave, what you mentioned is exactly what we did in the beginning, and it toppled the taliban regime. it's the nation building that lands us in trouble.

Hmm. My memory isn't what it used to be and it wasn't that good to start with. However is it possible that we used the drones, special forces as the pre cursor to an invasion as opposed to targeting training camps? Like I said earlier America can't rebuild the word in it's own image and expect it to work.

well it wasn't so much drones as it was airpower in general, but it was just a small number of special forces embedded with the northern alliance troops, along with american airpower that initially beat the taliban/al qaeda.

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Originally Posted by David Macleod:
The Soviets occupying a Country for years whilst all the time having to fight to stay there before eventually giving up is hardly a success.

Well, you know I'm just challenging you.  Lol!  I think what you are getting at is that no one has ever successfully conquered that land.  and so far that's been true.  

Originally Posted by David Macleod:

The invasion of Afghanistan was a stupid, gung ho over reaction. If we had used unmanned drones and special forces in the first instance we would not be in the same depth of **** that we find ourselves in now. (I worded my previous post badly with regard to Afghanistan/Bin Laden so hopefully that clears that up.)

It certainly could have been fought more intelligently.  I would much rather use technology and covert action whenever we can.  but what depth of sh*t do you feel we are in right now?  From what I can tell, we can move about the country pretty much at will.  The only thing that is keeping us from invading Taliban strongholds are politics.  Otherwise we have the power and ability to move in and send em all to Allah.  

Originally Posted by David Macleod:

I also did not say I was worried about the poppies. What I said is that poppy production has sky rocketed since the invasion. I pointed this out as an aside to the fact that the Americans have installed a corrupt Govt, that every time we leave an area, town, village, settlement having supposedly removed the Taliban, the Taliban move back in.

Yeah, that guy that's president over there is a corrupt bastard.  But what other options are there?  Everyone else is just as corrupt.  And if we (the allies) simply chose to force martial law on the people, things would be far worse.  So for now we have to work with a guy that would stab us in the back for a dollar.

Originally Posted by David Macleod:

Nobody in the whole **** God forsaken Country trusts us or their Govt. We are fighting a war we cannot possibly win.

I respectfully disagree.  While Afghanistan will never resemble the USA or the UK, a democratically elected govt can be implemented.  

Originally Posted by David Macleod:

Does this scenario remind you of a previous American invasion in Asia?

Sure!  There are some similarities.  As a matter of fact, I think I read this war is longer than Vietnam.  However, think of S. Korea and Japan!  Imo, that has been a real story of success.  

Originally Posted by David Macleod:

Now I'm all for removing the likes of Saddam and the Taliban from the face of the earth. However one thing America has yet to learn is that you cannot go invade a Country, remove their Govt, make them take one just like yours and expect the people to like it. Change cannot be forced on others. The American way is not the right way for the rest of the world. Thinking it is is incredibly arrogant.

Sadly, I think this is what the rest of the world thinks we tried to do.  But it isnt.  No one expected the end result to be interstates and mini-malls all over Afghanistan.  

You say you are for removing people like Saddam and the Taliban.  How can this be done if you don't overthrow them?  We've tried to rely on the Iranians to overthrow their regime for decades...how far has that gotten us?  Sanctions have never worked in history.  So, other than rolling up your sleeves and getting your hands dirty, what else was to be done?

You know...if 9-11 had never happened...Al Quaida probably would still flourish in Afghanistan.  The Taliban would still be in control.  the women would still be getting stoned to death and unable to have the freedom of going to school.  9 year olds would still be prowling the streets with ak-47s and beating anyone that broke Sharia law with sticks.  We'd most likely have been content to live and let live so to speak.

But 9-11 did happen.  And no leader should be expected to ignore a sneak attack like that.  Tony Blaire would have attacked.  Jacques Chirac (crooked as he was)  would have invaded for crying out loud.

No offense, but it's just not realistic to expect a nation to be attacked on that scale and simply turn the other cheek.

Originally Posted by David Macleod:

I really don't think the average American gave a 'rip' about how Iraq or Afghanistan was held together. I think all they cared about was bloody vengeance and damn the consequences. It's an understandable reaction and one that most people would have but to take that immediate reaction and to extrapolate it out to a Govt level and to keep the bloody vengeance ball rolling the way your (and our) Govt did was incredibly stupid and arrogant.

Yep, we demanded vengeance and got it.  But I just dont know what other answer there was.  Do you?  I mean ... what did everyone expect?