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Originally Posted by Lelania Bailey:
This is one instance I was speaking of but there have been many more.  In the documentary, Restrepo Afghan outpost there are other instances caught on video.  A Commander said "It's not our fault they are associated with the Taliban."  Five civilians, two who were children, were killed.   Part of what Bradley Manning put out there was the inaccuracy of the civilian death count.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04/whistleblower-report-leaked-video-shows-us-coverup/

i had a feeling that video was the one you were referencing. i'm not sure i see what the problem is. you have a group of men armed with AK's and RPG's in the middle of a war zone. one shot from an RPG can cook an entire armored vehicle. should we have rolled down the street to see if they wanted to turn themselves in? were there children around? that's what wikileaks says, but they sure werent running around playing in the streets where they were visible.

a death toll is, at best, just an estimation. so by its very nature it's inaccurate. and if that's all manning had released, then he probably wouldn't be in a whole lot of trouble right now. but he went well beyond that. he turned over almost a million files to wikileaks, and much of it wasn't even about war.

and, i'll just say this about war. it's ugly, it's chaotic, and it's deadly.  why do you think a lot of our guys come back so screwed up in the head? all the laughing, and what would otherwise be seen as psychotic behavior, is just a coping mechanism for these guys. most are fresh out of high school, and the only way to keep themselves from being drowned in the enormity of it all, is to sometimes treat it like a game. when they're being shot at, they don't have the luxury of calling a time out so they can get a better understanding of everything that's happening around them. pretty much everything is done on the fly, and in those circumstances, especially when dealing with the unknown, mistakes are going to be made. guys are going to get jumpy, bullets are going to find the wrong target, and civilian deaths are going to occur. i mean it's something that not even i can fully grasp, because i've never been in that situation. but basically, our guys aren't just a bunch of bloodthirsty monsters out there, killing anything that moves just for fun.

and that's all i've got right now.

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I won't judge Manning.  A court will do that.  
Pat Tillman is a good example of corruption.  I am not willing to be one of those silent Americans that says"oh, it's just a few...  Most are good guys."  Who doubts that the majority of soldier act as they should?  Not me.  But, that being said, it is pretty scary seeing the cove rups and thinking the higher ups are going to do the right thing by a whistle blower.

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My problem with that video is that they were shooting at journalists as well.  They shot and killed journalists.  Isn't that the **** our government calls other countries out for all the time?  It was reported that many civilians died in that video (I think 12).  Now, you can say "that's the ugly truth about war."  But REALLY?  Are you really ok with that?  Because if you think we aren't making enemies in droves because of these injustices, you are wrong.  More recruits for Al Queda.   They will say,"you killed my family.  I have nothing to live for.  Now, I will go attack you and yours."  THAT IS WAR.  Revenge.  It is stupid that no one has figured out yet that peace begins within ourselves.  If we attack because we were attacked it is never ending war.

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Originally Posted by Lelania Bailey:
My problem with that video is that they were shooting at journalists as well.  They shot and killed journalists.  Isn't that the **** our government calls other countries out for all the time?  It was reported that many civilians died in that video (I think 12).  Now, you can say "that's the ugly truth about war."  But REALLY?  Are you really ok with that?  Because if you think we aren't making enemies in droves because of these injustices, you are wrong.  More recruits for Al Queda.   They will say,"you killed my family.  I have nothing to live for.  Now, I will go attack you and yours."  THAT IS WAR.  Revenge.  It is stupid that no one has figured out yet that peace begins within ourselves.  If we attack because we were attacked it is never ending war.

if you hadn't been told that reporters and civilians were in that group, would you have known it just by looking at the video? i don't think our guys said, "hey look, i bet there are journalists and civilians mixed in with those gun toting thugs. let's get em!"

and yes, there are cover-ups. i don't like it either. but the way to fix that isn't by stealing classified documents, most of which have nothing to do with cover-ups. the pat tillman story came out, without wikileaks. as did abu-graib. i mean do you really think assange really has any sort of allegiance to the american people?

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Amen.

I still say that Manning did what he did out of spite, rather than some noble cause.

And we tend to forget that Assange used to be a hacker.  He hacked into the Pentagon, and has publically said he has no regrets for that.  He is currently wanted in Sweden for allegations of sexual assault.  And even the number 2 man (Daniel Domscheit-Berg) at WikiLeaks has resigned because he felt the group had become too much about Assange, and less about its mission.  Oh...and also because the group was unhappy about Assange's leadership and handling of the release of the Afghan document.      There have been others who have quit Assange as well.

So Assange is not the knight in shining armor some want to make him out to be.  He's a bad guy...and probably an egomaniac.  He clearly thinks he's smarter than everyone else and that his way is the only right way.

And yeah...I wish we could get our hands on him.

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and if you want to shed light on some shady dealings in the military, how about some good old fashioned investigative journalism?

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Yep...like 'tailhook'.  

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wikileaks_army_private;_ylt=Aqi4tHTVLCb2cDQkX5SWPjqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTN0M2YycjdsBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwMzA0L3VzX3dpa2lsZWFrc19hcm15X3ByaXZhdGUEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwM3BHBvcwM0BHB0A2hvbWVfY29rZQRzZWMDeW5faGVhZGxpbmVfbGlzdARzbGsDd2lraWxlYWtzc3Vz

WikiLeaks suspect forced to sleep naked in brig
David Dishneau, Associated Press – Fri Mar 4, 2:05 pm ET

The Army private suspected of giving classified U.S. documents to the anti-secrecy group WikiLeaks was forced to sleep naked in a military jail at least once this week, the Marine Corps acknowledged Friday after the soldier's lawyer complained.

"It was a situationally driven event but to go into detail about it would be inappropriate because it would violate the detainee's privacy," Villiard said.

Col. Thomas V. Johnson, another Quantico spokesman, said the treatment was not punitive.

The Navy Corrections Manual permits the removal of clothing if a prisoner tries to commit suicide.  But the Navy says that Manning is not on suicide watch.  So I dunno what's going on.    He is on Prevention of injury status though.  So I would guess he's at least tried to harm himself.  Wouldnt surprise me if Manning would try to harm himself and claim the military did it to him prior to a hearing.  The left would fall for that hook, line and sinker.

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I do wish they would just start his court martial procedings, convict him and send his ass to the appropriate federal supermax.
this petty treatment just gives ammo to those who think Manning is a knight in shining armor.

forgot the "k" lol what a noob

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Agreed.  Thats how I feel about the Guantanamo prisoners.

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Here's the video that was leaked by Wikileaks.  Watch this and see if you think it's important to know the truth or not.  This may help explain why the people in these countries dislike us so.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04/whistleblower-report-leaked-video-shows-us-coverup/

Bradley Manning is a prisoner of concience.  

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Originally Posted by Sarah Skinner:
Here's the video that was leaked by Wikileaks.  Watch this and see if you think it's important to know the truth or not.  This may help explain why the people in these countries dislike us so.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04/whistleblower-report-leaked-video-shows-us-coverup/

Bradley Manning is a prisoner of concience.  

I do not see anything in that video that is out of the ordinary. Men with MBR's and RPG's gathered together,  possibly planning an attack. I see no kids, no women, and cannot tell, from the video, that there were journalists.

What exactly do you see???

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I've kind of skimmed over this topic a time or two here.  I don't think we can really know what his motivation was, but as far as selecting what to divulge, I believe that was up to Wikileaks.  If any of this information will help us end this folly sooner rather than later, I'm for it.  Years ago, Daniel Ellsburg released the Pentagon papers.  That was a real eye opener for Americans.  They found out that our government was lying to us about the war in Vietnam. (Saying things were going well for us, when in fact it was a disaster!)  He thought long and hard about doing it, but some people have a concience that won't let them keep quiet when they know something is not right, or that someone is lying.  Ray McGovern feels that if he had had the courage of Bradley Manning, (to reveal what he knew about the war in Vietnam) the Vietnam war memorial in DC would be much shorter.  He has to live with that for the rest of his life.  People wrestle with doing what they are told, even if it is not right.  A tough call.  I wouldn't want to be in those shoes....

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Originally Posted by Sarah Skinner:
I've kind of skimmed over this topic a time or two here.  I don't think we can really know what his motivation was, but as far as selecting what to divulge, I believe that was up to Wikileaks.  If any of this information will help us end this folly sooner rather than later, I'm for it.  Years ago, Daniel Ellsburg released the Pentagon papers.  That was a real eye opener for Americans.  They found out that our government was lying to us about the war in Vietnam. (Saying things were going well for us, when in fact it was a disaster!)  He thought long and hard about doing it, but some people have a concience that won't let them keep quiet when they know something is not right, or that someone is lying.  Ray McGovern feels that if he had had the courage of Bradley Manning, (to reveal what he knew about the war in Vietnam) the Vietnam war memorial in DC would be much shorter.  He has to live with that for the rest of his life.  People wrestle with doing what they are told, even if it is not right.  A tough call.  I wouldn't want to be in those shoes....

You do realize that things like social morale is very important to the health of a nation??? Which does more harm to social morale; a) releasing documents or b) twisting the truth???

Only a small minority of any nation gets its rocks off when they hear about the bad things its government does.

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Our enemies love it though.