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Dod and I were having a friendly (but passionate) discussion in another thread about WW2 and FDR.  I got us off-topic and we ended up discussing something completely unrelated to what he initially wanted to talk about.  My bad.  

Anyway, some of you have heard me describe myself as a Patriot.  And when i say that, I dont just mean I'm one of the millions of flag wavers that makes up this "We support the troops" generation of Americans today.  

I mean I truly am a patriotic American and am in complete and total awe of what my grandparents generation did to ensure my country remain free.   Allies from around the world did the same things to fight the Axis powers, both on the front and on the homefront.   They were truly...the Greatest Generation.

What follows is an excellent film about this time in American history.  What many of us fail to understand is that, we came close to losing the war.  Our freedom was truly in doubt!  Our people were frightened at the possibilities and what might come after Pearl Harbor.  We were just beginning to experience what the Brits and French and Poles and our allies were going through (though they went through sheer hell).

Listen as you hear the people of that time talk about the war, talk about their fears, talk about the general feeling of the enemy at that time.


In this next video we see how everyone contributed to the war effort.  Even Hollywood helped bring home the seriousness of what was expected of us.  We also see how the Japanese (On the West Coast) were rounded up and sent into internment camps.  And we see why Americans of the day, (for the most part), were behind that.

And in this last video, listen as David McCullough give, what I believe is the simplest, best explanation of why we dropped the bomb on Japan.  And how the former GI speaks of the sheer terror and numbness he felt as he prepared to invade, knowing he was a dead man walking.   The Japanese dragged us into a war we didnt want to participate in.  They were brutal, merciless to their victims and they simply refused to surrender.And they want me to apologize for bombing Japan.  Not bloody likely mate.  

I believe that if our people today felt the same way that the people of that generation felt, we would get behind this war effort we now face.  Think about it though... the only ones truly making any real sacrifice today are the troops and their families.  The rest of us are (as the woman hinted at in the first video) just a bunch of flag wavers.  

We say that we support the troops and buy the magnet ribbons to go on our cars.  But this war...and THAT war are eons apart.  Half this nation is not behind this war effort.  It hasn't been presented to us in terms of "we have to win to survive".   Most of us dont even bother to think about the war anymore.  It is no longer in the news.  We do not fear invasion like our grandparents did.  We have largely forgotten it and dont take it seriously.

After 9-11 everyone got on a patriotic bandwagon.  But this war has not been forefront in our minds.  And over time we have let the nay-sayers tell us that this war is meaningless.  We've come to believe that maybe...just maybe, we were wrong to go to war.  We didnt have a quick victory.  We havent caught Osama.  And we let the nay-sayers wear us down, tell us we are villains for detaining people captured on the battlefield.

What does that say about our generation.  We're just a buncha flag wavers.  Not real patriots.

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Dennis the invasion has already begun just go to any store or motel and you can see it for yourself.
They are not like the immigrant of old that put off the old country an became Americans.
When I took my Dad to DC in Nov. the manager of the motel starting say **** like George Bush
is a war criminal, I wanted to tell him go back to the country he came from since he has learned to speak up.

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here's how i agree with you dennis. if we (the nation) got behind every war effort the same way we got behind WWII, then all our wars would meet with more success. however, not all wars are equal. for one thing, we're not fighting these massive million man armies, with the fate of the entire world at stake. you don't need to turn your entire economy into a war economy to fight goat herders with ak 47s and rpgs. while us losing afghanistan would give al qaeda a free base, and almost certainly lead to more terror attacks, our whole way of life still isn't in jeopardy. perhaps if 9/11 were carried out by china, then....

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
here's how i agree with you dennis. if we (the nation) got behind every war effort the same way we got behind WWII, then all our wars would meet with more success. however, not all wars are equal. for one thing, we're not fighting these massive million man armies, with the fate of the entire world at stake. you don't need to turn your entire economy into a war economy to fight goat herders with ak 47s and rpgs. while us losing afghanistan would give al qaeda a free base, and almost certainly lead to more terror attacks, our whole way of life still isn't in jeopardy. perhaps if 9/11 were carried out by china, then....

I understand where you are coming from.    This war is weird.  Its more like fighting the mob, than an organized national army.  Actually it reminds me of a James Bond flick where they fight the forces of SPECTRE (Al Quaida), than against the Soviet Union.  So its tough.

This may sound conceited, but I think most people in our part of the country (the South) still have many of the values our grandparents had ... at least to some degree.

But I look at folks like Nancy Pelosi, Michael Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, Sean Penn, etc. They SAY they support the troops, but in the same sentence turn around and say things that are detrimental to the war effort.  

How does that support our troops? They just gave aid and some comfort to the enemy by criticizing our involvement in the war. NYTimes and papers like that are just as guilty.  And I look at people like John Murtha...a decorated war veteran.  The man knew how vital it was to get behind the troops, but ended up criticizing both THEM and the war effort.  I tellya...this sounds hateful, but I'm GLAD that man is dead.  He was breathing air we could be breathing.

In WW2, the Hollywood canteen opened. Major stars came out to meet with and dance with soldiers and sailors and show them a good time. THAT's supporting our troops. Many MAJOR stars joined the military to fight. James Stewart, etc. But how many stars today have put their career on hold to join? I even read that the USO is having trouble getting celebrities to go to Afghanistan and Iraq to entertain the troops. Toby Keith does...but I wonder about Kiefer Sutherland, John Travolta, Angelina Jolie, Britney Spears, etc? Are THEY supporting our troops...really?

We are not asked to ration our supplies and this probably makes the war seem like a far off dream. The news rarely reports on the war anymore and when it does, it is often critical. with the exception of 'Operation Shoebox' and a few charitable things like that, there is no real drive by schoolkids and families to get involved in helping the troops...at least I dont think so.

These troops deserve better than what we've given them. They at least deserve a nation that will get behind them ...especially in the media.

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Originally Posted by George Fleming II:
Dennis the invasion has already begun just go to any store or motel and you can see it for yourself.
They are not like the immigrant of old that put off the old country an became Americans.
When I took my Dad to DC in Nov. the manager of the motel starting say **** like George Bush
is a war criminal, I wanted to tell him go back to the country he came from since he has learned to speak up.

Hi George!  Glad to seeya here man.  I figured you'd enjoy this conversation being a veteran yourself.  

George Bush made some mistakes imo, but I do think his heart was in the right place.  I do think the man's whole aim was to protect the people of our country.  I think he got some bad intel and some bad advice though.  But when politicians and celbrities keep saying 'Goerge Bush lied' over and over and over....eventually people who do not really investigate what actually happened, will start believing it.

Bush didnt actually lie.  He was misinformed by bad intel.  So was Tony Blair.  So were many leaders of the free world.  But the Rosie O'donnels, Whoopi Goldbergs  and Michael Moore's of the world still paint him as a liar.  And sadly...about half our country hears this and believes them.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:

These troops deserve better than what we've given them. They at least deserve a nation that will get behind them ...especially in the media.

agreed.

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and i would add that i think the current anti-war atmosphere is a residual effect of the counter culture revolution taking root in the mainstream.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
They were truly...the Greatest Generation.

Time for me to be  a prick ("at least he admits it this time" you all are thinking), the Revolutionary War and the Civil War generations were greater than the WWII generation. The WWII generation are the greatest generation in living memory.

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Originally Posted by Argan Johnson:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
They were truly...the Greatest Generation.

Time for me to be  a prick ("at least he admits it this time" you all are thinking), the Revolutionary War and the Civil War generations were greater than the WWII generation. The WWII generation are the greatest generation in living memory.

'
that's a good point.

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Dennis what you say is correct. Remember George Bush's father was part of that generation and I believe his steadfast policy came from knowing what his father went through. These guys in WWII had no choice. They had to fight to ensure this nation would survive. Washington and Grant were basically fighting their own countymen so thay we would survive. Americans in WWII fought on two fronts and had to do it on foreign soil making logistics a terrible boundary to over come. They weren't in the service for 3 years but for the duration or until they were killed or wounded. An HBO miniseries Band of brothers is an execellant story of one group of these men. I was lucky enough to meet serveral of these heroic men and they certainly qualify as patriots of the first order. To this day some of their exploits are still taught at military acedemies. This generation is dying at a rate of over 1,000 per day and soon will be gone. This is one old soldier who salutes all who served during WWII.

Uncle Sammy in Texas

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
What many of us fail to understand is that, we came close to losing the war.  Our freedom was truly in doubt!  Our people were frightened at the possibilities and what might come after Pearl Harbor.  We were just beginning to experience what the Brits and French and Poles and our allies were going through (though they went through sheer hell).

Well, to be honest there, America was never really in danger of losing the war - not in the way that the british, french, polish, russians etc were. There was never really a chance that America was going to be invaded and occupied. At the worst, if the Germans had over-run Europe, there probably would have been an armistice with the Reich followed by another version of our "Cold War". And there was no chance that the Japanese would ever have invaded, they never even envisioned the prospect. Their war plans were to knock the americans back on their heels until they had consolidated their holdings in Asia, at which point they were under the assumption that the US would see it as "too much effort" to keep fighting and accept the status quo.  

We say that we support the troops and buy the magnet ribbons to go on our cars.  But this war...and THAT war are eons apart.  Half this nation is not behind this war effort.  It hasn't been presented to us in terms of "we have to win to survive".   Most of us dont even bother to think about the war anymore.  It is no longer in the news.  We do not fear invasion like our grandparents did.  We have largely forgotten it and dont take it seriously.

The blame for this one has to go back to George W Bush and his administration just after 9/11. This sort of thing has to come from the top, but from the beginning there was never a message of required shared sacrifice:

"From the very outset, the president described the "war on terror" as a vast undertaking of paramount importance. But he simultaneously urged Americans to carry on as if there were no war. "Get down to Disney World in Florida," he urged just over two weeks after 9/11. "Take your families and enjoy life, the way we want it to be enjoyed." Bush certainly wanted citizens to support his war -- he just wasn't going to require them actually to do anything. The support he sought was not active but passive. It entailed not popular engagement but popular deference. Bush simply wanted citizens (and Congress) to go along without asking too many questions."

(from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100301977.html)

So, this isn't one you can pin on Obama :-P

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Originally Posted by Sam Colburn:
Dennis what you say is correct. Remember George Bush's father was part of that generation and I believe his steadfast policy came from knowing what his father went through. These guys in WWII had no choice. They had to fight to ensure this nation would survive. Washington and Grant were basically fighting their own countymen so thay we would survive. Americans in WWII fought on two fronts and had to do it on foreign soil making logistics a terrible boundary to over come. They weren't in the service for 3 years but for the duration or until they were killed or wounded

What I think makes them great isn't just the way they fought the war, but also what they did after. Once all the fighting and the killing was over, they went home and resumed their lives from where they left off. Then, using their experiences from the war, they built the foundations of the America of the 1950s and 1960s. There wan't any complaining or asking for special treatment, they just dusted off the cobwebs and went on living.  

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Originally Posted by Sam Colburn:
Dennis what you say is correct. Remember George Bush's father was part of that generation and I believe his steadfast policy came from knowing what his father went through. These guys in WWII had no choice. They had to fight to ensure this nation would survive. Washington and Grant were basically fighting their own countymen so thay we would survive. Americans in WWII fought on two fronts and had to do it on foreign soil making logistics a terrible boundary to over come. They weren't in the service for 3 years but for the duration or until they were killed or wounded. An HBO miniseries Band of brothers is an execellant story of one group of these men. I was lucky enough to meet serveral of these heroic men and they certainly qualify as patriots of the first order. To this day some of their exploits are still taught at military acedemies. This generation is dying at a rate of over 1,000 per day and soon will be gone. This is one old soldier who salutes all who served during WWII.

Uncle Sammy in Texas

Hey Uncle Sammy!  Glad you could visit us!  

'Band of Brothers'...my favorite movie series of all time.  I think of Uncle Hood each time I see it.

You know, its interesting you mentioned the bit about our boys being in for the duration.  As I recall, a lot of colonists quit fighting when planting season came (during the American Revolution).  Or they quit when they couldnt get paid.  The real heroes stayed for the duration.  (Of course, Washington hanging a few deserters probably helped).  

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

Well, to be honest there, America was never really in danger of losing the war - not in the way that the british, french, polish, russians etc were. There was never really a chance that America was going to be invaded and occupied. At the worst, if the Germans had over-run Europe, there probably would have been an armistice with the Reich followed by another version of our "Cold War". And there was no chance that the Japanese would ever have invaded, they never even envisioned the prospect. Their war plans were to knock the americans back on their heels until they had consolidated their holdings in Asia, at which point they were under the assumption that the US would see it as "too much effort" to keep fighting and accept the status quo.  

Ah...well, I meant the Allies, were in danger of losing the war.    One of the things I admire most about Great Britain is that, even though they had been rocked by the Nazi blitzkrieg, they still fought like lions and refused to be whipped.  If they had rolled over lie the rest of western Europe, this world might look a lot different today.

But as far as invasion in America...its true that we are blessed in many way.  It would have taken a Normandy-like invasion from Germany to occupy us.  However, I think its interesting to note that Hitler did have plans for us.  There were spies all over America.  there were plans for strategic long-range bombers to hit our cities.  Hitler was very close to completing a nuclear missile capable of hitting our shores.  So we were in terrible danger too.

We've also learned that Japanese subs patrolled our western shores.  And they experimented with balloons that could carry bombs on the jet streams to our coastline.  We've even found some of these devices.  so I respectfully disagree with any thought that America was never in danger of invasion.  The Japanese had shown absolutely no sign of pulling back.  I firmly believe that, had the axis powers prevailed, the world today would be divided between Germany and Japan.

But you are right about Western Europe bearing the brunt of devastation and fury.

Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

The blame for this one has to go back to George W Bush and his administration just after 9/11. This sort of thing has to come from the top, but from the beginning there was never a message of required shared sacrifice:

"From the very outset, the president described the "war on terror" as a vast undertaking of paramount importance. But he simultaneously urged Americans to carry on as if there were no war. "Get down to Disney World in Florida," he urged just over two weeks after 9/11. "Take your families and enjoy life, the way we want it to be enjoyed." Bush certainly wanted citizens to support his war -- he just wasn't going to require them actually to do anything. The support he sought was not active but passive. It entailed not popular engagement but popular deference. Bush simply wanted citizens (and Congress) to go along without asking too many questions."

(from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100301977.html)

So, this isn't one you can pin on Obama :-P

Lol!  Well, I dont pin this on Obama.    And I agree that Bush probably should have taken a different tactic when selling this war to the American public.  Going to Disney world doesnt seem like something one normally would do if they intended to take the war seriously.  Getting the public involved is (imo) the wiser course.  Selling war bonds, volunteering at the USO, various charity drives, etc.  

Americans forget that even today, we are at war.  However the only way you'd know it is that gas costs $3 plus per gallon now.  Everything else is as normal as it can be.  Its almost surreal.  Maybe this is a good thing though.

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the problem with invading america is like the problem with invading russia, only worse. it's just too big to be occupied, especially by smaller nations, which the axis were. i say it's worse than invading russia, because unlike the ussr, you'd have to launch a 1000 mile expedition over open ocean. and then, once they got here, they'd virtually be surrounded, with little hope of reinforcement.