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I hold my hand up to blithely at times seeing the youth of taday as nothing but a horde of grunting hoodie semi-literates or some weird role reversal of teenage girls dressed as prostitutes, and prostitutes dressed as schoolgirls, all left in a whirlpool of nothingness with electronic gadgetry having removed the focus and concentration required to read more than two lines of anything.

However if the statistics in the Sunday's are to be believed 5 16-24 yaer olds die each day from binge drinking, and even more scary is that in the UK in 1992 31000 of them were unemployed, now in bright modern 2011 that figure has reached 950,000 and climbing. Even calculating in the governments schematic massaging of statistics, that is a horrendous situation for the young, our future.

Systematically youth clubs/centres have been closed, apprenticeships all but removed, to be flagged again as the second coming of the messiah or some new government think tank incentive. It isn't just the availabilty of work we've taken away, it's any meaning to education, but worst of all hope.

It's not just that I regularly fall for the government headlined schemes to make things better, that are in reality nothing more that smoke and mirrors to line the coffers of the treasury, I actuality vote under democratic process these people in to power ?

Today I feel ashamed !

Any ideas how "we the people" can stem the tide ?

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Lot's of things come to mind.  Stuff like political correctness, multiculturism, and greater access to anything/everythings helps to fuel it all.

However, to me, it boils down to a lack of morality.  And morality is defined as a system of rights and wrongs.

Originally, we got the idea of liberty.  But starting with the generation just prior to my own, it began to be redefined.  Today, when you ask a kid what it means, they'll tell you it means "the ability to do whatever I want to do" and that's it ... that's all it means to them.

The moral aspect has vanished.

Originally, individual liberty was coupled with personal responsibility.  Lincoln (paraphrased) once said that liberty is not the ability to do what you want to do but rather it is the responsibility to do what you ought do.

Today, personal responsibility ... the moral aspect of liberty ... has been divorced from liberty.  And the nanny state has rushed in to fill the void.

We've lost our moral compass.

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It seem so easy to acknowledge the symptoms, maybe even critically. But I think noses get bloodied when trying to address 'why' we have these results. Why does so much of today's youth lack healthy values? Are their parent's values really any better? Why does a angry-tempered, careless, irresponsible, or even ignorant child feel entitled to the dysfunction they embrace? And why does a parent feel entitled to treat their child(ren) with such pathological abuse?

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Originally Posted by Scott Terry:

We've lost our moral compass.

I agree 100 % ...  

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I can heartfeltly agree wit a loss of moral compass, but I think we,ve reached a stage beyond personal responsibility, to one of a loss of socilaity reponsibility and global morality. The ether has indeed made the world smaller, but it has also denegrated parental control to almost a bystander in establishing concrete values in their issue.I agree also with Shawn in this modernistic belief of entitlement, and with that an automatic almost" righ"t of an entitlement.

Perhaps we do indeed just need to start over and make do with the "lost" generation and hope for the best, yet hope, as so much in this life relies heavily on opportunity, and it seems to be that pool that is shrinking.

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Originally Posted by Christian Hanchard:
I can heartfeltly agree wit a loss of moral compass, but I think we,ve reached a stage beyond personal responsibility, to one of a loss of socilaity reponsibility and global morality. The ether has indeed made the world smaller, but it has also denegrated parental control to almost a bystander in establishing concrete values in their issue.I agree also with Shawn in this modernistic belief of entitlement, and with that an automatic almost" righ"t of an entitlement.

Perhaps we do indeed just need to start over and make do with the "lost" generation and hope for the best, yet hope, as so much in this life relies heavily on opportunity, and it seems to be that pool that is shrinking.

When it comes to morality, moral compasses, or conscience, I feel it's favorable to keep in mind that we're also dealing with 6+ billion different and unique earthly personalities. And it seems that such great individuality results and a vastly pronged fork in perceived morality, rightness, and wrongness.

I remember someone once telling me that if a man is a murderer at heart but hasn't actually committed the crime, then murdering is what he should do and then later be held accountable accordingly. To me, this felt like an endorsement to murder; it felt 'wrong'. But I also sensed that this person genuinely felt 'right' in his expressed opinion. He and I were left in gridlock; I was unwilling to accept that a murderous person 'should' commit murder, and he was unwilling to accept that a murderous person should be a poser containing their desire to murder. So where exactly is the moral compass pointing here?

I'd like to believe that most people would regard this person in my example above as a very sick minded individual. But in similar and not so extreme ways, I see such opposing values many people so it simply doesn't surprise me that we're seeing so much toxicity in today's youth (or today's adults for that matter either). But then who am I to say what's toxic and what's not? Where's the moral compass pointing there?

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Originally Posted by Christian Hanchard:
I can heartfeltly agree wit a loss of moral compass, but I think we,ve reached a stage beyond personal responsibility, to one of a loss of socilaity reponsibility and global morality. The ether has indeed made the world smaller, but it has also denegrated parental control to almost a bystander in establishing concrete values in their issue.I agree also with Shawn in this modernistic belief of entitlement, and with that an automatic almost" righ"t of an entitlement.

Perhaps we do indeed just need to start over and make do with the "lost" generation and hope for the best, yet hope, as so much in this life relies heavily on opportunity, and it seems to be that pool that is shrinking.

I would argue that we haven't progressed at all but rather we've regressed.  You open with an example of that regression.

So we have two competing philosophies today ... one of liberty and personal responsibility, the other of statism.  I am and always will be a proponent of personal responsibility because that's what works.

The paradox of law is that all law is moral.  Consequently, you can only legislate morality ... a system of rights and wrongs.  However, you can't make someone a moral person by virtue of having passed moral laws.  You can't legislate morality and you can't not legislate morality ... the paradox.

Therefore, the statist ideal is only that ... an ideal ... and will never be anything else because it does not change human nature.  It only "accomplishes" what it does by force.

On the other hand, personal responsibility is an individual thing.  If I'm instilled with personal responsibility, I have liberty and I don't have to be forced to do things.  On the contrary, it's proactive.  I'll more often than not do what's right.  And that includes being my brother's keeper when it's the responsible thing to do (vs. entitlement).

IMNSHO, rather than progressing to something else, we need to go back to the basics and the element that's been erased from our consciousness ... the element that's missing today is personal responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Scott Terry:
IMNSHO, rather than progressing to something else, we need to go back to the basics and the element that's been erased from our consciousness ... the element that's missing today is personal responsibility.

How does a society accomplish this?

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Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:

Originally Posted by Scott Terry:
IMNSHO, rather than progressing to something else, we need to go back to the basics and the element that's been erased from our consciousness ... the element that's missing today is personal responsibility.

How does a society accomplish this?

Society doesn't do it ... that's statism.

We take it upon ourselves as individuals ... that's personal responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Scott Terry:

Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:

Originally Posted by Scott Terry:
IMNSHO, rather than progressing to something else, we need to go back to the basics and the element that's been erased from our consciousness ... the element that's missing today is personal responsibility.

How does a society accomplish this?

Society doesn't do it ... that's statism.

We take it upon ourselves as individuals ... that's personal responsibility.

My bad on lack of vocabulary

Anywho, I'm with ya on that, but there's still the aspects of 'how' do we do that, and I think it's a very complex and subjective thing. IMO, it's rooted in a gross lack of personal values. I think by virtue of having healthy values, a person is responsible. But, how do you teach people healthier values when so many (seemingly toxic) people think their values are - just fine?

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Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:

But, how do you teach people healthier values when so many (seemingly toxic) people think their values are - just fine?

I'm responsible for myself and my family.  I choose to have good values and to model good behaviors.  I pass them to my kids by what I say, what I require, and what I do.  I reinforce good behaviors and I don't reward bad ones.

If someone else thinks their bad values are just fine ... let life teach them by letting them fail.  When enough skin is removed from their asses, they may be motivated to do differently.

And when they show the desire or motivation to want to be personally responsible and want to do what's right, that's when I will take it upon myself to be there for them ... that's when I'll be my brother's keeper.

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Originally Posted by Scott Terry:

Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:
But, how do you teach people healthier values when so many (seemingly toxic) people think their values are - just fine?

I'm responsible for myself and my family.  I choose to have good values and to model good behaviors.  I pass them to my kids by what I say, what I require, and what I do.  I reinforce good behaviors and I don't reward bad ones.

If someone else thinks their bad values are just fine ... let life teach them by letting them fail.  When enough skin is removed from their asses, they may be motivated to do differently.

And when they show the desire or motivation to want to be personally responsible and want to do what's right, that's when I will take it upon myself to be there for them ... that's when I'll be my brother's keeper.

Ok, I'm still with ya on this. But obviously there is a considerable number of people who do not take responsibility for themselves, and what we're seeing with our kids today indicates that this is quite a pervasive dysfunction. IMO, this has gone on for far too long and the problem is too widespread. So I guess maybe now I'm wondering what we're talking about; acknowledging what seems to be problematic, or considering possible solutions?

Like you, I take responsibility for myself. You and I obviously do that differently as we're unique individuals, yet the commonality between us is the existence of our unique values, choices, preferences, experiences, etc, that influence our ambition or principles in personal responsibility. But given the obvious declination and lack of personal values demonstrated by today's youth, is simply being an 'example' good enough, or is there another proactive/effective/reasonable measure that could be used in influencing the regrowth of personal values widespread?

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My favorite quote about youth: "In case you're worried about what's going to become of the younger generation, it's going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation."--Roger Allen

Even Aristotle worried that all the youth seemed to be in a continual state of intoxication.  For the most part, they're going to turn out OK.  There's going to be some bumps in the road to adulthood.  It sounds pretty cold, but some will not survive.  But many many more survive today than at any other time.

'They' tend to like to talk about binge drinking.  The evils of alcohol, and other means leading to altered states, have been whined about...well, long before Aristotle was worried.  Binge drinking is tending to point up...while any other average use or first use stat has either dropped or remained steady.  I, personal opinion, think it has more of a drink it when you can get it feel.  Unemployment always hits youth harder in economic downturns.

Sure, there are things we could do to make their lives better.  Speak up for them when you see those clubs endangered or education cuts and abuses.  But most of all...remember...enjoy...and learn from them more than you teach.

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Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:
Ok, I'm still with ya on this. But obviously there is a considerable number of people who do not take responsibility for themselves, and what we're seeing with our kids today indicates that this is quite a pervasive dysfunction. IMO, this has gone on for far too long and the problem is too widespread. So I guess maybe now I'm wondering what we're talking about; acknowledging what seems to be problematic, or considering possible solutions?

Like you, I take responsibility for myself. You and I obviously do that differently as we're unique individuals, yet the commonality between us is the existence of our unique values, choices, preferences, experiences, etc, that influence our ambition or principles in personal responsibility. But given the obvious declination and lack of personal values demonstrated by today's youth, is simply being an 'example' good enough, or is there another proactive/effective/reasonable measure that could be used in influencing the regrowth of personal values widespread?

" But obviously there is a considerable number of people who do not take responsibility for themselves.."

because they don't have to. nothing is anyone's fault anymore. we're all just a  bunch of victims of society. any time somebody does something stupid now, instead of taking responsibility and learning from it, they sue. any time some kids shoot up a school, or some nutjob shoots a congresswoman, it's because society failed them, not because they're sick assholes. so the very idea that we - as a society - can fix this, is part of the same mentality that got us where we are.

i'm 100% on board with scott's remarks. in fact, when i first read this topic, before anyone had posted on it, my first thought was to respond, "raise your kids right." but other than that, we have to stop bailing people out for their stupid mistakes, because that creates an environment where people don't have to take responsibility for themselves, and they never have to learn the lessons of their failings.

and it's not just the kids of today, it's the parents of the kids of today. you know where all this started? where all of our downfalls as a nation began? with the counter culture revolution of the 60s and 70s. this whole baby boomer generation is where we started falling in love with ourselves and bucking the system. instead of morality, we turned to relativism. instead of frugality, we turned to live life for today. instead of family values, we turned to materialism. we became so wealthy as a nation, and were blessed with so much, that we began to form this idea that there should be no losers. that no one should have to suffer, and that everyone should be able to live whatever life they wanted to.

in short, we became selfish and hedonistic. of course i'm speaking in generalities, but we became more concerned with our own happiness, that we were less willing to sacrifice for our kids, our family, and our community. we got this notion that our emotional wellbeing took precedence over all else. we began divorcing because we didn't feel that same spark as when we were high school sweethearts. we began working more to supply our Id with the meaningless crap that gives us satisfaction, and started leaving the youth to their own devices. we even began carrying out abortions because people didn't want to be inconvenienced with having a kid.

instead of looking to ourselves, we turned to government to legislate decency. we were too busy with our leisurely pursuits, that we needed someone else to fix all our problems. the generation that preached "don't trust the man" became the man, with the intent of fixing the very same society it helped screw up.

so now, we're entering the third generation of americans raised under this system, which has become the norm. so when you ARE a responsible parent, you have society working against you. "but little johnny's parents let him have a cell phone in the 4th grade! that's not 'fair!'" "suzy's parent's let her wear a thong in middle school! i hate you!" this makes it so much harder for responsible parents to tell their little brats NO! in fact, a lot of people think they shouldn't have to tell their kids no, because they want whatever makes their kids happy. after all, our own happiness is what matters, right?

this whole idea of social engineering, collective salvation, secular humanism is a perverse cancer, and it has eaten away at our society for so long, that there is no simple, overnight answer. unfortunately, all we can do is try to raise our kids with a sense of personal responsibility, honor, and morality, and hope that they can overcome the lures of society.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
this whole idea of social engineering, collective salvation, secular humanism is a perverse cancer, and it has eaten away at our society for so long, that there is no simple, overnight answer. unfortunately, all we can do is try to raise our kids with a sense of personal responsibility, honor, and morality, and hope that they can overcome the lures of society.

If you were to guess, what percentage of parents do you think raise their kids with a sense of personal responsibility, honor, and morality?