OFFLINE

Eh, well...what to do about it?  This has happened probably for 60 years now.  Lotsa dead presidents are guilty.  But if you dont pour billions of aid into these tyrannical regimes...what then?

Do i think the people will have better lives?  

No.  Most are going to put their religious clergy into power regardless.   And when they do occasionally protest, the regimes wont have the threat of losing that money to make them hesitate to brutally crush any rebellion.

I really believe that, if not for the US and Western Nations who do give aid to these regimes, nearly every Islamic State would be a brutal Theocracy like the Taliban had.

The Jews would have long been exterminated.
The Suez Canal would have been closed and we'd be more at the mercy of OPEC.
And most likely the Russians and Chinese would have already turned those states into nuclear ones.

So i hate it, but I guess its a necessary evil.

OFFLINE

it's only a necessary evil if you view those to be your only two choices. the problem is, we throw money around with virtually no strings attached. and really, we simply don't care so long as the flow of whatever it is we want, isn't interrupted. and if that's the way we want to be then fine, but at least come out and say it. don't patronize people about standing up for democracy, peace, and rainbows. if we want to be an empire, then let's just do it up like rome, and take every damn thing we want. but if we want to pride ourselves on values, and moral principles, then we need to walk the walk too. but we can't have it both ways. like beck says, that way we could at least have an honest debate about it.

here's a novel idea. how about we stop trying to be the world police and stop involving ourselves in internal politics around the world. at least that way, we'd know where we stand with everyone. there wouldn't be billions of reasons for countries to smile to our face, while stabbing us in the back. and then we expect everyone else to put the same stupid stipulations on themselves that we put on us. i mean look at china's ascent. look what they've been able to do without trying to be mr. nice guy. at least they acknowledge that they're just looking out for themselves. and why is the world kissing their ass? one word. power.

but in a way, it's too late for us. we've been doing this too long to all of a sudden expect to find an easy solution. the problem is, we don't like not being in control. an unknown outcome to us, is worse than a bad known outcome. i just think all this makes us look self-righteous and pretentious. and everyone else can see right through us. they know what game we're playing, and they're more than happy to play along, as long as it suits them.

OFFLINE

I agree that I'd like to see us stop being the world's police.  And I hate spending billions in aid to countries that stab us at every opportunity.  But again, we cant just stop.  We have made a commitment to help folks we have treaties with. And (as in the canse of both Tiawan and Israel) if we stop aiding other countries, then those same countries might invade Japan and Israel.

And we dont want that.  ESPECIALLY Israel.  People really dont understand why we give aid to them.  But they do a lot of things for us too!

In the UN, Israel vote with us over 90% of the time.  The Arab nations vote against us almost as a reflexive action...nearly every time.

Israel was indispensable to us during the Cold War.  And it is now a bulwark against the aggression of Iran.  During Desert Storm, Israel provided vital intel, an umbrella of air cover for military cargo, and had personnel planted in Iraq to pick up downed airmen.  (Think France would have done this)?

Gen George Keagen (former head of USAF intel) staed publically that Israel was worth five CIAs with regards to intel passed along to our country.   He also said that the yearly $3 billion passed in military assistance to Israel was easily worth $50 to $60 billion in intelligence.

Isreal secures NATO's southern flank.  And it is the ONLY country that makes itself available to the US on any contingency.

Plus Israel and the USA are aligned by their love of democracy.

So we just cannot abandon them or do anything that might lead them into harm's way.  I guess we have to get our hands dirty whether we like it or not.  Because I guarantee that Egypt, Syrai, Lebanon, Jordan or Saudi will not do as much for us as Israel.  And if they offered...could we trust em?

OFFLINE

OK.  I wrote a reply for this thread then somehow hit the back button and lost it.  Damn it, Holmes! Anyway... You all bring up valid points about the middle east, Israel, etc.  Doddy, where is all this insight coming from?  As for Christians being attacked, or any minority religions being persecuted, I don't know if that will ever end.  In Iraq, Saddams right hand man was a Christian.  Because the country was not a theocracy, the Christians living there were safe from the majority Muslims.  They wouldn't dare pull any **** for fear of punishment by the dictator govt.  After Sadam was gone, the Christians started being persecuted and killed. I think some of these Muslim countries that are run by religious leaders (like Iran or when the Taliban was in control of Afghanistan) is a great example of why govts and religions should be kept separate.  there is always a danger that the religion in control will persecute the minority religions.

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:

So we just cannot abandon them or do anything that might lead them into harm's way.  

i'm not talking about complete isolationism. if we have a treaty with south korea to come to their aid, should NK roll tanks into seoul, that's one thing. and i don't even have a problem with selling arms to our allies. but we don't have to prop up foreign regimes, pump billions of dollars into countries, and try to effect internal politics around the world. maybe we could take a few pointers from canada in that regard. they're a member of nato, yet they don't try to determine the outcome of events internationally.

OFFLINE