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what is the core narrative of the hebrew bible? this is going to sound yoda-ish, but deal.

peace leads to prosperity, prosperity leads to decadence, decadence leads to divine retribution, retribution leads to oppression, oppression leads to suffering, suffering leads to redemption, redemption leads to liberation, and liberation leads to peace again.

this happens numerous times to the people of the OT. each time, they swore to never again repeat their mistakes, but inevitably, as prosperity led to decadence, they always did. they always turned their backs on their principles, and they always got a little full of themselves (rather than adhering to god's commandments).

according to aristotle - and i'm paraphrasing here - life is a balance between the two vices of excess and deficiency. between too much, and not enough. and of course, the most virtuous place to be, is somewhere in the middle.

i believe that in our society, we are more held hostage by our excesses, than by our needs. we have proven that we can survive through scarce times, but as a symptom of the human condition, if given the choice, we are all prone to acquiring more than we need to live. in fact, that's what our whole culture seems to be centered on.

whether or not you want to remove god from the equation, the same process referenced above, has been shown to play out over and over again, throughout history. great civilizations rise to prominence, they spread their influence and grow powerful, yet there seems to be this hidden point of no return, where the ideals that made them great, are subtly taken too far, and begins to work against them.

in my eyes, this is the personification of the inner battle we all face. it's only natural, as living beings, that we want comfort and relief from the pains of life. but unfortunately, we don't stop wanting, the instant our needs are met.

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Doesn't it always seem that the circle is one of those enigmatic symbols of life? When time is added to the equation then the circle becomes a cycle, a spiral, or even a vortex. I have seen or read these things in life as the fingerprints of God. And isn't it always so that as mortals we live a life in the balance between extreme polarities; love and hate, you and me, hot and cold, good and evil, etc? Wasn't it William Blake that said something like "Eternity is in love with time?"

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ps. when i say 'peace' i mean relative peace. perhaps dominance would be a better word.

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I have heard this called The Cycle of the Body Politic, and in a slightly different format: bondage/slavery --> spiritual truths --> liberty --> wealth --> apathy --> arrogance --> dependence --> bondage/slavery...

For the record I consider the passage of Obamacare as a firm step from arrogance into dependence.

*Edit add*

Also, I do not consider this the core narrative of the OT, it is God's unmerited grace on Abraham and the nation.

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hmm, hadn't heard of that.

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I want to add a segue to my Cycle of the Body Politic: when I am talking politics and cultural decay I do not defend the status quo or even some iconic era like the 50s. Specifically I feel (hostile) empathy to the hippies and the baby boomers, the WWII generation fell into a terrible apathy in their houses made out of ticky tacky. So it was legitimate to rebel against that, however what the hippies went to was arrogance and a bland sameness. And, after the anti-war movement fell apart they went back to the apathy of their parents. Except the hippie apathy was more terrible because they had not earned it and the basis of the apathy was utilitarianism instead of patriotism.

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Originally Posted by Argan Johnson:
I want to add a segue to my Cycle of the Body Politic: when I am talking politics and cultural decay I do not defend the status quo or even some iconic era like the 50s. Specifically I feel (hostile) empathy to the hippies and the baby boomers, the WWII generation fell into a terrible apathy in their houses made out of ticky tacky. So it was legitimate to rebel against that, however what the hippies went to was arrogance and a bland sameness. And, after the anti-war movement fell apart they went back to the apathy of their parents. Except the hippie apathy was more terrible because they had not earned it and the basis of the apathy was utilitarianism instead of patriotism.

good post, but i would point out again, that such apathy is a part of human nature. in most instances throughout history, it has taken some kind of a threat or tragedy to snap people out of it.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

good post, but i would point out again, that such apathy is a part of human nature. in most instances throughout history, it has taken some kind of a threat or tragedy to snap people out of it.

Read the  book of Hebrews, the most difficult book in the Bible IMHO, and see how the author tires to get the Christians out of their rut. (Full disclosure, I consider  the point of Hebrews is to stop Jewish Christians from going back to the sacrificial system and re-assimilating into Jewish culture; it has no salvation message. And these Jewish Christians were on the verge of doing that because they were apathetic and stuck in a rut).

Also, to talk Bible, the nastiest thing said about Christians is in Revelation Chapter 3 where Jesus is speaking to the church in Laodicea.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

are you referring to this?

" 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!   16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.   17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked."

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so in your mind, what's being referenced here?

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I am wondering how much background I should give on Revelation. I guess I will start from the beginning. First, John is receiving a revelation, aka a vision. This is not a recording of past events (like the gospels or Acts), nor is it an epistle (i.e. a written sermon). It is clearly the last book of the NT because churches are established and suffering from persecution. In addition it is tying up loose ends from OT prophecies to make the Bible a finished completed whole.

The main statement of Revelation is verse 1:7, it is about the second coming of Jesus the Anointed One. Verse 1:19 gives the book its major divisions: the things John has seen so far, the things which are, and the things to come. The letter to Laodicea  falls in "the things which are" part. So they do not count as prophecy.

Each letter to the seven churches has the following format: affirmation, condemnation (not always present), a way of repenting/turning from the sin, and a reward for repenting. John was to give this letter to an angel, angel means messenger, and in this case I think the word should have been translated instead of transliterated. I consider the messenger to be the preacher/church leader in that community; not a supernatural being like Michael or Gabriel.

I think the condemnation is quite simple, the church in Laodicea is lukewarm and not motivated. It should be motivated by realizing its miserable condition in the eyes of the Lord (i.e. has a bigger perspective). The reproof has a financial, social, and intellectual aspect to it (gold refined by Christ's fire, cloth their nakedness, and be able to see). And to let all of that happen they had to let Christ back into their lives, and Christ is knocking at the door.

Note, the references to lukewarm water, gold, clothes, and eye salve were very relevant since the city had an aqueduct that produced sulfuric lukewarm water. And the city's main industries were banking, clothes, and an eye salve; these industries made the city rich.

Now, to what I think is being referenced, in the Cycle of the Body Politic the church in Laodicea was in wealth and apathy. The solution to this is a relationship with God, and looking at things from a Godly perspective. The solution is not selling oneself to bondage, nor does this warning to Laodicea say that God is going to go another step in the Cycle of the Body Politic. Verse 3:19 might imply that, but the Christians in Laodicea did not have to have a threat or tragedy to snap themselves out of it.

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I am thinking about why I am a bit repulsed from your statement "it has taken some kind of a threat or tragedy to snap people out of [apathy]". I think that is because it has an element of fear mongering. I would like to add that a threat or tragedy does not really work on everyone. E.g. in America Islamo-fascism and Communism are threats and have caused plenty of tragedies, but not every America got shuck out of that rut. E.g. the song Wake Me Up When September Ends by Green Day is a cry to go back into apathy.

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while the author might've been specifically addressing certain churches, as the word of god, i feel the text also speaks to everyone.

as for your last paragraph, i can see what you're saying. i think that for many, unless a threat is immediate, tangible, it's just easier to  pretend it isn't real. to treat it as a hypothetical situation.  it's the classic, "it can never happen to me" syndrome. these are also my feelings toward your statement in another thread that it's preferable to learn from others' mistakes, and is the reason i feel one most times has to experience something firsthand, for it to really sink in. this is the reason history repeats itself. otherwise, we WOULD learn from the mistakes of past civilizations, and not be doomed to repeat them.