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....the biggest terrorist attack since 7/7 in Norway over the weekend and no-one has an opinion/comment?  Or does it not count when it's not muslim fundamentalists but right-wing extremists?

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Killer's 'bloody crusade'linked to UK cell
Hunt now on for 'network of murderers'


AN urgent hunt for possible British accomplices of the mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik is under way after it emerged that he launched his deadly "crusade" after meeting other right-wing extremists in London.

Before he carried out Norway's worst terrorist atrocity, Breivik typed out a chilling 1,500-page description of his plans, written entirely in English and datelined "London, 2011".

He signed the extraordinary document "Andrew Berwick", an Anglicised version of his name, and described his "mentor" as an Englishman he named as Richard.

Scotland Yard counter-terrorism officers are now trying to establish whether Breivik visited London earlier this year, as the manifesto suggests, and whether he is part of a wider network preparing to carry out a wave of similar attacks.

The 32-year-old boasts that he is just one of up to 80 "solo martyr cells" recruited throughout the UK and western Europe who are ready to follow his example of trying to overthrow governments tolerant of Islam.

He regards himself as a successor to the medieval Knights Templar, and claims to have been recruited at a meeting in London in April 2002, hosted by two English extremists and attended by eight people in total.

Any member of a political group that has allowed Muslims to migrate to their country is regarded as a "target" who deserves "the death penalty" according to his crazed writings.

He also spoke of being in touch with the far-right group the English Defence League and repeatedly referred to British politicians including Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, who are blamed for making London a global hub of Islamic terrorism.

It came as:

* The death toll in the twin attacks on Oslo and the island of Utoya rose to 98, with others still listed as missing.

* Breivik's father, a retired diplomat who once served in London, spoke of his "absolute horror" at his son's crimes.

* Norwegian police were caught out despite having warned in March of the danger that far-right groups could be planning a terror attack.

* It emerged that the police response to the massacre on Utoya was hampered when a boat was overloaded with equipment and its motor stopped.

* Breivik's lawyer said his client regarded his actions as "atrocious but necessary".

At a memorial service yesterday, the Norwegian Prime Minister, Jens Stoltenberg, was joined by the country's King and Queen in mourning the "national tragedy".

Breivik had spent nine years planning the atrocity, and spent three years writing his manifesto "A European Declaration of Independence" which was emailed to 5,700 people he had found on Facebook hours before he detonated a fertiliser bomb in the centre of Oslo.

Diversion

The bomb, he makes clear, was merely a diversion designed to draw police away from the real target, the Labour Party summer camp on Utoya where he gunned down at least 91 students.

He even discusses his reason for disguising himself as a policeman, to cause "confusion and hesitation" and buy an extra few seconds in which to fire off "two head shots".

But it is his descriptions of meetings with British accomplices that has led to fears he may be part of a network intent on mass murder.

Scotland Yard's domestic extremism unit is trying to identify the eight other people who attended the inaugural meeting of the "European Military Order and Criminal Tribunal" of the "Knights Templar" in London in April 2002.

He writes: "The order is to serve as an armed Indigenous Rights Organisation and as a Crusader Movement," and says the "founding session" was hosted by an English Protestant, with another English extremist also present.

Other attendees came from France, Germany, Greece, the Netherlands and Russia.

He writes: "I had or have a relatively close relationship with . . . an Englishman, who became my mentor. He was the one who first described the 'perfect knight' . . . let's call him Richard."

Describing the people at the meeting, he adds: "Most of them were successful entrepreneurs, business or political leaders, some with families."

Breivik claimed to have had online conversations with members of the English Defence League.

The EDL issued a statement saying: "We can categorically state that there has never been any official contact between him and the EDL."

Parts of the manifesto written by Breivik were taken almost word for word from the writings of "Unabomber" Ted Kaczynski. The passages copied appear in the first few pages of Kaczynski's own manifesto. (© Daily Telegraph, London)

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/killers-bloody-crusadelinked-to-uk-cell-2830137.html

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Well apparently Amy Winehouse's death is more important.

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Whats there to say, some supremest whack job killed a multitude of children in a shooting spree and blew up several additional by-standards out side of some government buildings in Oslo as retribution for what he views as the governing party being overly accepting of Muslims.  Its a horrible tragedy, and I feel its safe to say every one here is appalled by it, but whats there to discuss?  I've seen people try to correlate some of this man's views with those of some mainstream American and European conservative movements, however I can hardly see a meaningful discussion coming out of that.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
Whats there to say, some supremest whack job killed a multitude of children in a shooting spree and blew up several additional by-standards out side of some government buildings in Oslo as retribution for what he views as the governing party being overly accepting of Muslims.  Its a horrible tragedy, and I feel its safe to say every one here is appalled by it, but whats there to discuss?  I've seen people try to correlate some of this man's views with those of some mainstream American and European conservative movements, however I can hardly see a meaningful discussion coming out of that.

wow dude, why don't you make posts like this more often?

very much what i was going to say at the end there. the first thing i was going to say was, "it's norway, who cares?" and while i know that may sound mean, as far as the concerns of the international community rank, the happenings in norway are pretty low on the list. as bryant said, this guy was a **** whack job. the end. the sad thing to me is that it took 90 minutes for the authorities to get there? seriously? ever heard of a helicopter. and the uber-sad thing to me is that this guy will face a MAXIMUM of 21-26 years in prison for the 90 something innocents he killed. way to take a hard stance on crime norway.

and yeah, it's pretty disgusting the way news outlets like the ny times have tried to equate this guy with the tea party and every other conservative movement in america. JUST LIKE THEY TRIED TO WITH JARED LOUGHNER AT FIRST. because you frequently see this kind of thing happening at tea party rallies, right?  

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and this is just refreakingdiculous.


WASHINGTON – A review of Anders Behring Breivik's 1,500-page manifesto shows the media's quick characterization of the Norwegian terrorist as a "Christian" may be as incorrect as it was to call Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh one.

Breivik was arrested over the weekend, charged with a pair of brutal attacks in and near Oslo, Norway, including a bombing in the capital city that killed 7 and a shooting spree at a youth political retreat on the island of Utoya that killed more than 80 victims.

Piecing together Breivik's various posts on the Internet, many media reports have characterized the terrorist – who says he was upset over the multiculturalist policies stemming from Norway's Labour Party – as a "right-wing, Christian fundamentalist."

Yet, while McVeigh rejected God altogether, Breivik writes in his manifesto that he is not religious, has doubts about God's existence, does not pray, but does assert the primacy of Europe's "Christian culture" as well as his own pagan Nordic culture.





When news broke about the bombing in Olso, many commentators assumed links with Islamic extremism. When reports came of the massacre on Utøya island, perpetrated by a “tall, blonde, Nordic, man,” speculation quieted down until Anders Behring Breivik was identified. News reports first described Breivik as a “Christian terrorist,” largely on the basis of his Facebook profile and his postings to Christian fundamentalist Web sites. After his manifesto became public, Breivik was characterized as a “right-wing extremist.” To most, the Christian terrorist/right-wing extremist distinction makes little real difference: Only a madman could engage in such wanton killing.

Amid summaries of the 1500 page manifesto, Breivik’s religious beliefs are set in the context of an explicitly political agenda: his vision of a Christian Europe is predicated on the expulsion of Muslims to stem the tide of “Islamization” and “multiculturalism.”

As many commentators have already pointed out, the real template for the manifesto seems to be the writings of Unabomber Theodore Kaczynski. The religious content of the manifesto, especially its references to Christianity, is a hodge-podge, a series of bizarre after-thoughts buttressing Breivik’s xenophobic and paranoid worldview.

Breivik calls himself a “cultural Christian.” Religious Christians, he observes, have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, which he himself does not have. For Breivik, “Christendom” is a vehicle for preserving European self-identity and is not necessarily opposed to elements of “paganism” such as Breivik’s own “Odnistic/Norse” heritage, even though the cross, he argues, has a greater symbolic power than Thor’s hammer, Mjölnir. In spite of this, the initiation ceremony Breivik envisages for “Knights Templar” has no cross, only a candle, sword, skull.

The Christian history that Breivik seeks to reenact is not the passion of Jesus Christ, but the narrative of the Crusades. Breivik rhapsodizes about battles and lists the indulgences promises to Crusaders by Popes Urban II and Innocent III. Although he wishes that Benedict XVI would call Christendom to crusade, Breivik argues that the Roman Pontiff has been too accommodating to Islam and has thus betrayed the Church and Europe as a whole. The new Crusade will thus have to be initiated outside the authority of decadent institutional churches. Breivik’s description of how this Crusade will transpire has exaggerated contours of a computer game-it’s Valhalla via Warcraft.

Where Breivik’s thinking differs substantially from Al-Qaeda is in its paradoxical embrace of an oddly secular framework. The Christendom that Breivik extols rests upon a distinction between the cultural and the religious that Al-Qaeda would never accept.

Breivik’s vision is a Christianity without Christ. In the manifesto, Jesus is mentioned only as a foil against Islam or referenced in a contradictory way such as when Breivik attributes the survival of Egypt’s Coptic Christians to their acceptance of Jesus’s teaching to “put your sword in its place.”




this was two stories, but it pretty much illustrates the narrative that the american left has been trying to push for years. and it's really pathetic to watch the media do this, when you can see it. this is the same media, if you'll remember, who said not to rush to judgement over calling the fort hood shooter a muslim extremist. the last time, with loughner, they IMMEDIATELY jumped on the story speculating he was a right-wing tea partier. and they just couldn't wait to find the evidence linking him to the tea party, but that didn't pan out. now what they're trying to do is to take the religious christian aspect of conservatism and characterize this as fundamentalist christian terrorism. and they have just enough of a link to continue that narrative, even though this guy was clearly an anti-muslim bigot, with a POLITICAL AGENDA.

and he may be a conservative, but he's a european conservative which equals fascist. american mainstream conservatism, on the other hand, can be more closely equated with libertarianism.

either way, the fact that the media can be so brazenly biased, and still get away with it, is just unreal to me.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

very much what i was going to say at the end there. the first thing i was going to say was, "it's norway, who cares?" and while i know that may sound mean, as far as the concerns of the international community rank, the happenings in norway are pretty low on the list.

"it's norway, who cares?" - so, going back to the fort hood thing which was mentioned, 13 ppl get killed by a gunman in the US and it's a tragedy that makes headline news for days all over the world, but over 70 ppl get killed by a bombing and a shooting and the attitude is  "who cares" because it's in norway? Nice one guys, very sympathetic.  

as bryant said, this guy was a **** whack job. the end. the sad thing to me is that it took 90 minutes for the authorities to get there? seriously? ever heard of a helicopter. and the uber-sad thing to me is that this guy will face a MAXIMUM of 21-26 years in prison for the 90 something innocents he killed. way to take a hard stance on crime norway.

Yeah, the cops have some questions to answer there all right - then again, one of the reasons the response was so delayed was the bomb blast in Oslo, which Brevik had planned as a diversion so he could go on his shooting spree. The boat thing was a fiasco tho - apparently some German tourist on his boat got there and started helping ppl before the cops even got there...

and yeah, it's pretty disgusting the way news outlets like the ny times have tried to equate this guy with the tea party and every other conservative movement in america. JUST LIKE THEY TRIED TO WITH JARED LOUGHNER AT FIRST. because you frequently see this kind of thing happening at tea party rallies, right?  

Strangely enough, over here where the media doesn't have as much of an axe to grind, the reporting is still all about the massacre and the people of Norways' response to it.... The only bit of "right-wing conspiracy" that is mentioned is that the guy himself said in his court appearance that he has connections to some UK right-wing groups and has some other co-conspirators still at large in Norway.

And it's nice of Glenn Beck to pipe in and compare the kids that were shot to the Hitler Youth - nice way to keep the conversation at a calm rational level there.....

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

and he may be a conservative, but he's a european conservative which equals fascist. american mainstream conservatism, on the other hand, can be more closely equated with libertarianism.

Hmm, didn't you say a while ago dod that fascists were left-wing rather than right-wing? So if you're anti-government, anti-muslim and anti-immigrant in europe, you're a fascist, boo hiss, but if you're anti-government, anti-muslim and anti-immigrant in the US you're a patriotic libertarian?

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

very much what i was going to say at the end there. the first thing i was going to say was, "it's norway, who cares?" and while i know that may sound mean, as far as the concerns of the international community rank, the happenings in norway are pretty low on the list.

"it's norway, who cares?" - so, going back to the fort hood thing which was mentioned, 13 ppl get killed by a gunman in the US and it's a tragedy that makes headline news for days all over the world, but over 70 ppl get killed by a bombing and a shooting and the attitude is  "who cares" because it's in norway? Nice one guys, very sympathetic.  

as bryant said, this guy was a **** whack job. the end. the sad thing to me is that it took 90 minutes for the authorities to get there? seriously? ever heard of a helicopter. and the uber-sad thing to me is that this guy will face a MAXIMUM of 21-26 years in prison for the 90 something innocents he killed. way to take a hard stance on crime norway.

Yeah, the cops have some questions to answer there all right - then again, one of the reasons the response was so delayed was the bomb blast in Oslo, which Brevik had planned as a diversion so he could go on his shooting spree. The boat thing was a fiasco tho - apparently some German tourist on his boat got there and started helping ppl before the cops even got there...

and yeah, it's pretty disgusting the way news outlets like the ny times have tried to equate this guy with the tea party and every other conservative movement in america. JUST LIKE THEY TRIED TO WITH JARED LOUGHNER AT FIRST. because you frequently see this kind of thing happening at tea party rallies, right?  

Strangely enough, over here where the media doesn't have as much of an axe to grind, the reporting is still all about the massacre and the people of Norways' response to it.... The only bit of "right-wing conspiracy" that is mentioned is that the guy himself said in his court appearance that he has connections to some UK right-wing groups and has some other co-conspirators still at large in Norway.

And it's nice of Glenn Beck to pipe in and compare the kids that were shot to the Hitler Youth - nice way to keep the conversation at a calm rational level there.....

I meant no apathy in my post.  It wasn't to express, 'its Norway, so who the heck cares,' but rather that I know not what to say beyond lamenting the suffering of the victims.  I didn't want to delve into the political correlations between the assailant and other European and American conservative movements because doing so would misrepresent mainstream, peaceful political movements (flawed as I may believe them to be).  To do more would only serve to further polarize the public and muddy the already overstated political discourse.  While I have heard some far right types defend this man's actions on some discussion forums, they like Glenn Beck (did he really say that?  I wouldn't be surprised, but still, damn!) occupy the fringe of the conservative movement.  I do, however, believe this monster is a good example of the dangers posed by the militia movement (I understand most militia folks are just rednecks trying to play GI Joe on the weekend, but it also appeals to some more sinister elements).

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

and he may be a conservative, but he's a european conservative which equals fascist. american mainstream conservatism, on the other hand, can be more closely equated with libertarianism.

Hmm, didn't you say a while ago dod that fascists were left-wing rather than right-wing? So if you're anti-government, anti-muslim and anti-immigrant in europe, you're a fascist, boo hiss, but if you're anti-government, anti-muslim and anti-immigrant in the US you're a patriotic libertarian?

yes, by my definition. but i was referring to the european view of left/right politics, not my own. as for the last sentence, nice try

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

Hmm, didn't you say a while ago dod that fascists were left-wing rather than right-wing? So if you're anti-government, anti-muslim and anti-immigrant in europe, you're a fascist, boo hiss, but if you're anti-government, anti-muslim and anti-immigrant in the US you're a patriotic libertarian?

Yea!!!!

Once again you supply me with my daily dose of broad sweeping generalities. Way to go!!! Now if you would please excuse me, I gotta go talk to someone who doesn't take things out of context.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
Whats there to say, some supremest whack job killed a multitude of children in a shooting spree and blew up several additional by-standards out side of some government buildings in Oslo as retribution for what he views as the governing party being overly accepting of Muslims.  Its a horrible tragedy, and I feel its safe to say every one here is appalled by it, but whats there to discuss?  I've seen people try to correlate some of this man's views with those of some mainstream American and European conservative movements, however I can hardly see a meaningful discussion coming out of that.

wow dude, why don't you make posts like this more often?

Sorry Dod, but that remark caught my eye. I gotta defend Bryant here. He DOES make posts like this quite often. He may have swung to the left a tad since we first met him, but he ain't that far left. He is still very moderate in his views.

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Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:

Once again you supply me with my daily dose of broad sweeping generalities. Way to go!!! Now if you would please excuse me, I gotta go talk to someone who doesn't take things out of context.

No problems, always glad to help. Where do you get your daily dose tho on days that I don't post anything like that?

:-P

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daily show?

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Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
Whats there to say, some supremest whack job killed a multitude of children in a shooting spree and blew up several additional by-standards out side of some government buildings in Oslo as retribution for what he views as the governing party being overly accepting of Muslims.  Its a horrible tragedy, and I feel its safe to say every one here is appalled by it, but whats there to discuss?  I've seen people try to correlate some of this man's views with those of some mainstream American and European conservative movements, however I can hardly see a meaningful discussion coming out of that.

wow dude, why don't you make posts like this more often?

Sorry Dod, but that remark caught my eye. I gotta defend Bryant here. He DOES make posts like this quite often. He may have swung to the left a tad since we first met him, but he ain't that far left. He is still very moderate in his views.

Kind of what happened to me.