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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
Our jihad is massive amounts of prayer.  

...and murdering employees of abortion clinics, threatening and intimidating people in a small Texas town for not being perfect Christians, bombing and/or vandalizing mosques, and threatening to legally ruin science teachers for daring to discuss evolution.  Not an eighth as bad what the Islamic jihadist movement has done, but that's probably because the average fundamentalist Christian is much better educated, much more effluent, and much more intelligent than the average Jihadist (that said, the terrorists that attacked Edinburgh included MD's).

Lol! Well, lemmee ax ya this:  

How many Christian groups/denominations, sects, whatever do we hear of in the newspapers or on tv actually doing these things?  Furthermore, what scriptures do these groups (if there are any) point to justify their actions?

Otoh, how many Radical Islamic groups do we know of who do similar things and what scriptures of the Koran can we point to justify their actions?

The difference is night and day.

I can think of 2 people who murdered abortion doctors or whatever.  Maybe 3.  One was Eric Robert Rudolph.  Very doubtful he was a Christian.  I think one pastor might have done something similar.  His sanity is in question.  At the very least he couldnt point to a single scripture that would justify his murdering another human being all on his own.

As to intimidation, some people consider mere proselytizing as intimidation.  I had one woman tell me she was afraid of me because I was wearing a cross on a necklace and she was afraid I'd crucify her (somehow) with that cross.  Some accounts of intimidation are simply ridiculous.  

Again, maybe the Westbury Baptist Church is 1 example of intimidation, but practically no Christian considers that group anything other than a bunch of nuts spewing hatred.

Threatening to legally ruin science teachers?  Is that really jihad?  Or is that an attempt by people to use the law to try to achieve their goals.  Isnt this what the ACLU does everyday?  

I'm sorry man but these are merely vague references.  Someone in here already asked Dod to cite his sources.  i wont do that.  But you have to admit its difficult to discuss these issues without knowing exactly what occurred.

By their fruit you will recognize them.  Matthew 7:16
1 Samuel 24:13 As the old saying goes, 'From evildoers come evil deeds,' so my hand will not touch you.
Proverbs 20:11 Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is pure and right.
Matthew 7:20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Luke 6:43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

We know true Christians by their actions.  If they do evil, (kill, maim, etc) you can bet they arent really Christians.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
this whole thread just wreaks of the moral equivalency thing that i rather despise.

It's called being an apologist. People try to list the bad things one certain group does in attempts to lessen the bad things another totally unrelated group does even though they know deep down that there is no comparison. Seen it a thousand times.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
Our jihad is massive amounts of prayer.  

...and murdering employees of abortion clinics, threatening and intimidating people in a small Texas town for not being perfect Christians, bombing and/or vandalizing mosques, and threatening to legally ruin science teachers for daring to discuss evolution.  Not an eighth as bad what the Islamic jihadist movement has done, but that's probably because the average fundamentalist Christian is much better educated, much more effluent, and much more intelligent than the average Jihadist (that said, the terrorists that attacked Edinburgh included MD's).

Lol! Well, lemmee ax ya this:  

How many Christian groups/denominations, sects, whatever do we hear of in the newspapers or on tv actually doing these things?  Furthermore, what scriptures do these groups (if there are any) point to justify their actions?

Otoh, how many Radical Islamic groups do we know of who do similar things and what scriptures of the Koran can we point to justify their actions?

The difference is night and day.

They don't get much media attention because 1) they are limited in number and 2) because most Americans feel less frightened by Christianity than Islam, so crazy Muslims are more effective for the precious terror ratings (the more the news can terrify the public, the more people will watch).  The KKK (remember, while most of their hate goes toward black people, they still go after Catholics, Jews, and Muslims), Army of God, Lambs of Christ, Concerned Christians (who were arrested in Israel for planning to blow up a Jerusalem mosque), Hutaree (planned to bring down the US government because they believed it supported Satan), The Covenant Sward and Arm of the Lord, The Order, Lord's Resistance Army (a Christian Uganda revolutionary army), National Liberation Front of Tripura (based in India, allegedly one of the ten most active terrorist groups in the world), Manmasi National Christian Army (Indian Christian terrorist group that uses violence to convert Hindus), are all Christian terrorist groups that use the bible (presumable mostly Old Testament, however according to Matthiew 5:17 Jesus didn't come to overturn the old covenant, so the older laws still hold) to justify their horrid acts.  I know you'll be quick to say that these twisted individuals are not really Christians, however I have a handful of Saudi friends who say the same about Al Quida and other Islamist terrorist groups.  As far as I can tell, a terrorist is a terrorist-regardless of what creed they claim to follow.

I can think of 2 people who murdered abortion doctors or whatever.  Maybe 3.  One was Eric Robert Rudolph.  Very doubtful he was a Christian.  I think one pastor might have done something similar.  His sanity is in question.  At the very least he couldnt point to a single scripture that would justify his murdering another human being all on his own.

Michael Frederick Griffin - Born again Christian that murdered Dr. David Gunn

Rev. Paul Jennings Hill - Killed Dr. John Britton and James Barrett

John Salvi - Christian, killed two Planned Parenthood receptionists.  Claimed to be schizophrenic after arrest, doctors concluded symptoms faced and insanity defense was denied.

Eric Robert Rudolph - Killed a security guard when bombing an abortion clinic.  Also responsible for other anti-homosexuality attacks.  He claims to be Catholic, and despite what he has stated has been shown to have associations with terrorist Christian Identity movement.

James Charles Kopp - Killed multiple abortion doctors, member of militant Lambs of Christ

Scott Roeder - Killed Dr. George Tiller in a Kansas church.  Roeder is associated with a Christian terrorist organization.  He is also legitimately schizophrenic.

As to intimidation, some people consider mere proselytizing as intimidation.  I had one woman tell me she was afraid of me because I was wearing a cross on a necklace and she was afraid I'd crucify her (somehow) with that cross.  Some accounts of intimidation are simply ridiculous.  

Again, maybe the Westbury Baptist Church is 1 example of intimidation, but practically no Christian considers that group anything other than a bunch of nuts spewing hatred.  

If one feels proselytizing or the presence of a cross intimidating, then they a) figure out what they think, why they think it, and why their ideas differ from your beliefs and b) grow a spine and not be afraid to have that conversation with you.  If they are afraid to defend their thoughts then they probably lack strong premise for their beliefs.  I've been in churches since I renounced Christianity (mostly for weddings and such), and I have discussed religion with friends and coworkers (my former supervisor is fairly religious, and we had some long drives to get to field sites).  But not all claims of intimidation by Christian groups are that inconsequential.  In addition to the violent groups noted above in this post, the OP discussed some groups who use black mail and threat of violence to prevent people from acting in unchristian ways.

Threatening to legally ruin science teachers?  Is that really jihad?  Or is that an attempt by people to use the law to try to achieve their goals.  Isnt this what the ACLU does everyday?    

Including this bit was a bit of a stretch.  However, unlike the ACLU these parents and organizations threaten to ruin science teacher for following the law and teaching evolution.  The treat isn't loosing a court case, but rather not being able to afford a defense.

I'm sorry man but these are merely vague references.  Someone in here already asked Dod to cite his sources.  i wont do that.  But you have to admit its difficult to discuss these issues without knowing exactly what occurred.

By their fruit you will recognize them.  Matthew 7:16
1 Samuel 24:13 As the old saying goes, 'From evildoers come evil deeds,' so my hand will not touch you.
Proverbs 20:11 Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is pure and right.
Matthew 7:20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Luke 6:43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

We know true Christians by their actions.  If they do evil, (kill, maim, etc) you can bet they arent really Christians.

Killing someone simply because their thoughts and beliefs differ from your own is always unethical.  I feel that this is a statement that most people would agree with, regardless of their religion or lack there of.  Unfortunately religious and political extremists often reach alternative conclusions, believing their thought or the word of their deity is more precious than human life.  These extremists will always be a trammel to society, an obstacle in defiance of civilization.  While many of the teachings of the Mosaic religions teach love and moderation, there are no shortages of scriptures that also justify horrible acts.  Unfortunately some iniquitous individuals have latched onto such verses and used them to defend some of the worst evils society has experienced.  In light of this, it is still paramount that we understand that the actions of the fringes do not represent the thought of the hole.  While it may be true that the Koran contains passages encouraging violence, so does the Old Testament.  To take that fact and use it to label all Muslims terrorists would be no better than accusing forbearing Christians like Dennis and Dod of the same.  All people who would use violence to suppress freedom and tough, regardless of who they call god or who's philosophy they follow are all equally morally reprehensible.

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Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
this whole thread just wreaks of the moral equivalency thing that i rather despise.

It's called being an apologist. People try to list the bad things one certain group does in attempts to lessen the bad things another totally unrelated group does even though they know deep down that there is no comparison. Seen it a thousand times.

basically

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My point about Islam is simply this.

I dont think its fair to label all Muslims as terrorists.  Also most of my Christian friends feel this way.  But the koran...their doctrine, the teachings are (imo) evil.  While the NT is certainly not politically correct, nor is it tolerant in the least, it does stress forgiveness and love.  Jesus himself said forgive seven times seventy if necessary.

The Koran doesnt teach that.  Rather, it harkens back to an eye for an eye.  But even more than that, it encourages one to kill non believers!

THAT is why I say it is an evil faith.  And (imo) a true adherant of Islam would do things like Al Quaida.  Anyone that doesnt is not doing what Islam teaches.  Anyone who practices moderate Islam is merely watering down what Muhammed said.  Almost like the Unitarians do the Christian Bible.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
My point about Islam is simply this.

I dont think its fair to label all Muslims as terrorists.  Also most of my Christian friends feel this way.  But the koran...their doctrine, the teachings are (imo) evil.  While the NT is certainly not politically correct, nor is it tolerant in the least, it does stress forgiveness and love.  Jesus himself said forgive seven times seventy if necessary.

The Koran doesnt teach that.  Rather, it harkens back to an eye for an eye.  But even more than that, it encourages one to kill non believers!

THAT is why I say it is an evil faith.  And (imo) a true adherant of Islam would do things like Al Quaida.  Anyone that doesnt is not doing what Islam teaches.  Anyone who practices moderate Islam is merely watering down what Muhammed said.  Almost like the Unitarians do the Christian Bible.

Then by that logic Judaism and by extension Christianity are evil.  Thats what half the OT is about, and according to Matthew 5:17 Jesus didn't come to overturn the law of the prophets.  I understand your argument that the NT goes against violence (John 18:10 is a splendid example of this), you're still tied to the Old Testament, which advocates the whole sale slaughter of 'heretics.'  Needless to say, the OT is all the Jews have, so now NT to give them a defense.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
My point about Islam is simply this.

I dont think its fair to label all Muslims as terrorists.  Also most of my Christian friends feel this way.  But the koran...their doctrine, the teachings are (imo) evil.  While the NT is certainly not politically correct, nor is it tolerant in the least, it does stress forgiveness and love.  Jesus himself said forgive seven times seventy if necessary.

The Koran doesnt teach that.  Rather, it harkens back to an eye for an eye.  But even more than that, it encourages one to kill non believers!

THAT is why I say it is an evil faith.  And (imo) a true adherant of Islam would do things like Al Quaida.  Anyone that doesnt is not doing what Islam teaches.  Anyone who practices moderate Islam is merely watering down what Muhammed said.  Almost like the Unitarians do the Christian Bible.

Then by that logic Judaism and by extension Christianity are evil.  Thats what half the OT is about, and according to Matthew 5:17 Jesus didn't come to overturn the law of the prophets.  I understand your argument that the NT goes against violence (John 18:10 is a splendid example of this), you're still tied to the Old Testament, which advocates the whole sale slaughter of 'heretics.'  Needless to say, the OT is all the Jews have, so now NT to give them a defense.

Jesus said he didnt come to do away with the law.  The part you left out was that he said he came to fullfill the law.

He did that on the Cross.

Thats the part athiests and secular humanists almost always leave out.

Jesus fullfilled the law on the Cross.

And now...we are under the new covenant of grace.  That alone invalidates the rest of your accusation.  People who arent Christians just dont understand that concept.  Sorry man.