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06/17/2011 10:36 am

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Gay marriage now just one vote shy of becoming law in New York despite Archbishop Dolan's objections

BY KENNETH LOVETT     
DAILY NEWS ALBANY BUREAU CHIEF
Wednesday, June 15th 2011, 4:00 AM


ALBANY - Gay marriage moved just one vote shy Tuesday of becoming law in New York as the state's top Catholic raised holy hell trying to stop it.

Sen. Roy McDonald (R-Saratoga) - in a dramatic reversal from his earlier opposition - became the second GOPer in as many days to give his blessing to same-sex nuptials, bringing Senate support to 31 votes.

Thirty two votes are needed to approve a gay marriage bill Gov. Cuomo formally introduced Tuesday.

McDonald's change of heart came hours after Archbishop Timothy Dolan led a band of religious groups hustling to halt the momentum.

"The stampede is on," Dolan wrote in a blog post. "Our elected senators who have stood courageous in their refusal to capitulate on the state's presumption to redefine marriage are reporting unrelenting pressure to cave in."

Dolan equated the move to allow same-sex marriage to life in China or North Korea, where "government presumes daily to 'redefine' rights, relationships, values and natural law."

"Please, not here!," Dolan wrote. "We cherish true freedom, not as the license to do whatever we want, but the liberty to do what we ought."

The opposition from Dolan, other religious groups and conservative political outfits threatening retribution at the ballot box has turned the Senate into a pressure cooker for Republicans.

And McDonald snapped.

"You get to the point where you evolve in your life where everything isn't black and white, good and bad, and you try to do the right thing," McDonald, 64, told reporters.

"You might not like that. You might be very cynical about that. Well, f--- it, I don't care what you think. I'm trying to do the right thing.

"I'm tired of Republican-Democrat politics. They can take the job and shove it. I come from a blue-collar background. I'm trying to do the right thing, and that's where I'm going with this."

At least four of McDonald's fellow Republicans are considering voting for the bill, prompting widespread optimism that the Legislature is about to cross the threshold of history.

"I've moved from cautiously optimistic to outright optimistic," said Assembly bill sponsor Daniel O'Donnell.

GOP Sens. Greg Ball (Putnam), Andrew Lanza (S.I.), Stephen Saland (Poughkeepsie) and Mark Grisanti (Buffalo) say they're open to voting "aye."

The bill's fate is more certain in the Assembly, which has passed gay marriage legislation three times in recent years - only to see it die in the Senate. The Assembly hopes to vote on it Wednesday if it gets permission from Cuomo, sources said.

Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos (R-Nassau) set a closed-door meeting with his members Wednesday to decide if he should hold a vote on Cuomo's bill. He's previously said it should come to a vote.

Multiple sources say they expect the bill to be voted on - and passed - as soon as Friday.

Cuomo finally released the bill he wants passed - which insiders say is another sign the nuptials are gaining steam because he vowed only to go forward if approval was assured.

The bill provides the same legal rights for same-sex couples who marry as heterosexual couples. And it prohibits local clerks from nixing marriage license applications from gay couples.

In hopes of attracting needed Senate GOP votes, Cuomo's bill offers some exemptions from anti-discrimination laws to religious groups and affiliated organizations.

The Knights of Columbus, for instance, would be allowed to bar same-sex couples from renting out catering hall space.

The bill also specifies that no clergy would be forced to perform gay marriage ceremonies.

Hours after unveiling his bill, Cuomo was slated to head to the city for a fund-raiser with donors from the gay community.

Am not so much interested here in the gay marriage thing, as the reaction from Sen. McDonald: "Well, **** it, I don't care what you think. I'm trying to do the right thing. I'm tired of Republican-Democrat politics. " What do you think would happen in congress if more senators actually ignored the "party line" and pressures from the party leaders, special interest groups, lobbyists, news pundits etc, and voted according to their principles (that is, if they have any left)?  
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06/17/2011 7:56 pm

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Originally Posted by Kieran Colfer:

Am not so much interested here in the gay marriage thing, as the reaction from Sen. McDonald: "Well, **** it, I don't care what you think. I'm trying to do the right thing. I'm tired of Republican-Democrat politics. " What do you think would happen in congress if more senators actually ignored the "party line" and pressures from the party leaders, special interest groups, lobbyists, news pundits etc, and voted according to their principles (that is, if they have any left)?  



then you would have something similar to a global tea party.
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06/17/2011 8:25 pm

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RINOs...

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06/18/2011 10:12 am

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
RINOs...



yeah, real conservatives may make up a fifth of the government...maybe!
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06/18/2011 10:50 pm

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Real conservatives really wouldn't worry about this topic too much. It is only a worry among the religious right and not the rest of us.

I do like how it is left up to each individual state and not put on the Federal platter though. That is my only **** about the whole same sex marriage thing.
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06/18/2011 11:17 pm

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Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:
Real conservatives really wouldn't worry about this topic too much. It is only a worry among the religious right and not the rest of us.



That's one thing I respect about libertarians, they're not hypocrites like social conservatives.  I don't understand how some people can argue that they want the government to stay out of their check book (or any other economically related issue), but still want it in people's bedrooms.

I do like how it is left up to each individual state and not put on the Federal platter though. That is my only **** about the whole same sex marriage thing.



Unless I'm mistaken, isn't it currently federally banned (DOMA), with the controversy being the overturning of a federal ban.  By your own statement you should be in favor of whats going on.
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06/19/2011 6:10 am

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

then you would have something similar to a global tea party.



The tea party have their "Non-negotiable 15 Core Beliefs" though, don't they? So, you can apparently vote as your conscience dictates, and be a tea partier, so long as your conscience dictates you to follow all of their core beliefs - step out of line on even one of them and you're toast. So, how is that different from the 2 big parties?
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06/20/2011 11:05 am

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i feel i can make a well thought out LOGICAL argument against allowing same-sex marriage, but then i feel more strongly that the government doesn't have any business recognizing anyone's marriage. that's between them, their families, and their places of worship/lack thereof.
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06/20/2011 7:19 pm

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:


I do like how it is left up to each individual state and not put on the Federal platter though. That is my only **** about the whole same sex marriage thing.



Unless I'm mistaken, isn't it currently federally banned (DOMA), with the controversy being the overturning of a federal ban.  By your own statement you should be in favor of whats going on.



Short answer:
You're right.

Long answer:
I really don't like government of any kind dictating who can and cannot get married. As long as it is same species and monogamous, who really cares. I do agree that private institutions such as churches should and do have the right to say who can and cannot wed within their walls and government should not get involved in those ceremonies. Of course it is what it is now. Federal law should be overturned and the decision should be left up to each state to decide individually. To make this an issue in Federal elections and debate really draws attention away from the real issues.
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06/21/2011 4:19 pm

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When I think of Gay marriage, the 1st thing I ask is "since no one is really kicking in doors and rounding up people, then its apparent that the law allows homosexuality.  So whats the reason gays need to be legally married then?"

My conclusion is that it HAS to be about money.

If gays are allowed to marry, it means they can file joint tax returns.  It means they can also have the benefits of spouses on pensions and insurance.  It means that gay couples in the military can get more pay and more benefits that singles cannot get.  It means that gay couples can get access to welfare and medicaid that other singles cannot get.  They can get health care benefits that the single person cannot get.  If a gay spouse dies, the survivor can get Social Security benefits and pension benefits that the single person cannot get.  And there are likely a host of benefits I haven't even thought of that they can get that other singles cant.

Most of these benefits come from taxes that we all pay.  And millions of people (like myself) believe that homosexuality is immoral.  And we do not want to pay for someone else's immorality.  

So, for me, thats the biggest thing.  If you wanna be gay...go be gay in the privacy of your own bedroom.  That's your business and between you and God.  But I dont wanna pay for it.  And i dont wanna indirectly be responsible for supporting it.
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06/21/2011 5:01 pm

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
When I think of Gay marriage, the 1st thing I ask is "since no one is really kicking in doors and rounding up people, then its apparent that the law allows homosexuality.  So whats the reason gays need to be legally married then?"

My conclusion is that it HAS to be about money.

If gays are allowed to marry, it means they can file joint tax returns.  It means they can also have the benefits of spouses on pensions and insurance.  It means that gay couples in the military can get more pay and more benefits that singles cannot get.  It means that gay couples can get access to welfare and medicaid that other singles cannot get.  They can get health care benefits that the single person cannot get.  If a gay spouse dies, the survivor can get Social Security benefits and pension benefits that the single person cannot get.  And there are likely a host of benefits I haven't even thought of that they can get that other singles cant.



Yes, it means they can file joint tax returns.  It also means several other things.  See the links below.  Its not just economics, but thats a big part of it.  Butou know what?  There's absolutely nothing unethical with that.

http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/wedding/f/MarriageBenefit.htm

Most of these benefits come from taxes that we all pay.  And millions of people (like myself) believe that homosexuality is immoral.  And we do not want to pay for someone else's immorality.  

So, for me, thats the biggest thing.  If you wanna be gay...go be gay in the privacy of your own bedroom.  That's your business and between you and God.  But I dont wanna pay for it.  And i dont wanna indirectly be responsible for supporting it.



So what if 'millions of people like your self believe that homosexuality is immoral,' the reason we have a bill of rights is to protect the public from bigots, even if they are many in number.  One could (and many have) use your exact argument to justify banning interracial marriages.  Thats why the lawyers defending CA Prop 8 have been having such a hard time in court, simply saying that 'we don't want to validate fag relationships because it makes God cry' has no legal validity.  More over, they are unable to make an argument against repealing Prop 8 that doesn't rely on Hebrew mythology or simultaneously undermine the legality of divorce.


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06/27/2011 5:40 pm

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Sorry I didnt get back sooner.  I was away for awhile and completely forgot about this thread.

I never said it was unethical.  Giving taxpayer money to fund pig farms is not unethical either.  But do we want to blow limited resources on that too?

Ok, so now NY has allowed same sex marriage.  They follow Mass and a few other states.  State's Rights and all that I guess.

But even though I mentioned immorality, its about much much more than immorality.  In fact, I dont understand why opponents of gay marriage seem to focus on the immoral issue instead of the financial issues and how this will affect our economy.  Its not only about what makes 'God Cry' to use your words.

Here is the argument that should be made.

Right now, our economy is in shambles.  It is costing people more and more to survive in this period of our history.  Talk is ongoing about whether we will have Social Security and Medicaid for old folks and the poor in the near future.  Yes, there are a lot of reasons for this that are unrelated to Gay marriage.

However....

All insurance in Massachusetts must now recognize same-sex “married” couples in their coverage. This includes auto insurance, health insurance, life insurance, etc. (So now insurance rates go up because of this)

Businesses must recognize same-sex “married” couples in all their benefits, activities, etc., regarding both employees and customers.
This means that more money will come out of an employee's paycheck to cover these benefits.

In 2004, Governor Mitt Romney ordered Justices of the Peace to perform homosexual marriages when requested or be fired. At least one Justice of the Peace decided to resign.

Since homosexual relationships are now officially “normal”, the Legislature now gives enormous tax money to homosexual activist groups. In particular, the Massachusetts Commission on Gay Lesbian Bisexual and Transgender Youth is made up of the most radical and militant homosexual groups which target children in the schools. This year they are getting $700,000 of taxpayer money to go into the public schools.  

And where does this money come from?  Taxpayers.

In 2008 Massachusetts changed the state Medicare laws to include homosexual “married” couples in the coverage.

All these things cost taxpayers more money.  And since Fed funds come from taxpayers of all 50 states, now we all have to fund these things.  (Many people barely have enough money for gas and food these days!  So they go on welfare, Medicare and Medicaid...which is funded by taxpayers).

Also...

Since homosexual marriage became “legal” the rates of HIV / AIDS have gone up considerably in Massachusetts. This year public funding to deal with HIV/AIDS has risen by $500,000.

Citing “the right to marry” as one of the “important challenges” in a place where “it’s a great time to be gay”, the Massachusetts Department of Public Health helped produce The Little Black Book, Queer in the 21st Century, a hideous work of obscene pornography which was given to kids at Brookline High School on April 30, 2005.  Among other things, it gives “tips” to boys on how to perform oral sex on other males, masturbate other males, and how to “safely” have someone urinate on you for sexual pleasure. It also included a directory of bars in Boston where young men meet for anonymous sex.

If you havent seen this little wonder, here's a link:   http://www.massresistance.org/docs/issues/black_book/black_book_inside.html

And when you read it, remember that it is being forced on kids in middle school.


Given the extreme dysfunctional nature of homosexual relationships, the Massachusetts Legislature has felt the need to spend more money every year to deal with skyrocketing homosexual domestic violence. This year $350,000 was budgeted, up $100,000 from last year.

Taxpayers have to fund that too.

Then there is simply the in-your-face disgusting defiance of gay groups.

Since gay “marriage” is now legal, gay groups have decided to rub everyone's nose in their newfound legal status.  Annual gay pride parades have become more prominent. There are more politicians and corporations participating, and even police organizations take part.  And the envelope gets pushed further and further. There is now a profane “Dyke March” through downtown Boston, and recently a “transgender” parade in Northampton that included bare-chested women who have had their breasts surgically removed so they could “become” men. Governor Patrick even marched with his “out lesbian” 17-year old daughter in the 2008 Boston Pride event, right behind a “leather” group brandishing a black & blue flag, whips and chains!

The homosexual “marriage” onslaught in public schools across the state started soon after the November 2003, court decision.
In early December, 2003. It featured an array of speakers, including teachers at the school who announced that they would be “marrying” their same-sex partners and starting families either through adoption or artificial insemination. Literature on same-sex marriage – how it is now a normal part of society – was handed out to the students.

Within months it was brought into the middle schools. In September, 2004, an 8th-grade teacher in Brookline, MA, told National Public Radio that the marriage ruling had opened up the floodgates for teaching homosexuality. “In my mind, I know that, `OK, this is legal now.' If somebody wants to challenge me, I'll say, `Give me a break. It's legal now,'” she told NPR. She added that she now discusses gay sex with her students as explicitly as she desires.  For example, she said she tells the kids that lesbians can have vaginal intercourse using sex toys.This is in an 8th grade class of kids!

By the following year it was in elementary school curricula. Kindergartners were given picture books telling them that same-sex couples are just another kind of family, like their own parents. In 2005, when David Parker of Lexington, MA – a parent of a kindergartner – strongly insisted on being notified when teachers were discussing homosexuality or transgenderism with his son, the school had him arrested and put in jail overnight.

Second graders at the same school were read a book, “King and King”, about two men who have a romance and marry each other, with a picture of them kissing.  When parents Rob and Robin Wirthlin complained, they were told that the school had no obligation to notify them or allow them to opt-out their child.

In 2006 the Parkers and Wirthlins filed a federal Civil Rights lawsuit to force the schools to notify parents and allow them to opt-out their elementary-school children when homosexual-related subjects were taught.  The federal judges dismissed the case. The judges ruled that because same-sex marriage is legal in Massachusetts, the school actually had a duty to normalize homosexual relationships to children, and that schools have no obligation to notify parents or let them opt-out their children! Acceptance of homosexuality had become a matter of good citizenship!

Think about that: Because same-sex marriage is “legal”, a federal judge has ruled that the schools now have a duty to portray homosexual relationships as normal to children, despite what parents think or believe!

Don't you think parents should have rights as to what their children are exposed to?
And dont you think taxpayers should have the right to decide what their taxes pay for without interference of activist judges?  I daresay that if a Federal judge said that prayer has to be allowed and Bible taught in schools, Atheists would complain.  Why then should the rest of us submit to the tyranny of these other forms of militant activism?
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06/27/2011 5:45 pm

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From: Queerty.com

Can We Please Just Start Admitting That We Do Actually Want To Indoctrinate Kids?

Queerty.com
May 12, 2011

They accuse us of exploiting children and in response we say, "NOOO! We're not gonna make kids learn about homosexuality, we swear! It's not like we're trying to recruit your children or anything." But let's face it-that's a lie. We want educators to teach future generations of children to accept queer sexuality. In fact, our very future depends on it.

. . . Why would we push anti-bullying programs or social studies classes that teach kids about the historical contributions of famous queers unless we wanted to deliberately educate children to accept queer sexuality as normal? . . . And I would very much like for many of these young boys to grow up and start f---ing men

. . . I and a lot of other people want to indoctrinate, recruit, teach, and expose children to queer sexuality AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

Read the entire article here:  http://www.queerty.com/can-we-please-just-start-admitting-that-we-do-actually-want-to-indoctrinate-kids-20110512/

So dont try to tell me that gay marriage is simply about civil rights and causes no harm.  It does.  It costs taxpayers money and leads to the destruction of the family.  Its their dirty little secret.
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