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A quick addition: the federation cannot stop someone from using the term TSD (Tang Soo Do) as that is a generic MA term. Many are emotionally tied to the MDK logo and term and continue to use it while not being in the federation. Personally I think it's better not to call what you do MDK. It won't hurt your school (promise) many organizations have prospered and actually outgrown the federation after changing their name to TSD whatever and their logo. Let them have it and wish them luck, then focus on growing your school/style in a positive way.
17 hours ago · Like · 3

Dan Segarra It would be pretty funny if someone did like in that episode of Star Trek and simply had a mirror image of the patch and did all the forms mirror image. The Do Bahk Soo Kwan Duk Moo federation. LOL!
16 hours ago · Like · 3

Jason Ladd I understand that people and organizations need to protect themselves (their property, symbols, etc). Of course, not specific to this particular incident but I feel that their aggressive course of action will ultimately be unproductive for them. In fact I believe it will be counterproductive. Its a shame, really.
16 hours ago via mobile · Like

William Allen Sharpe People have been using the fist for years but you're right Master Segarra, Tang Soo Do is a term no one can copyright.
16 hours ago · Like

Dan Segarra Actually they abandoned the MDK TSD logo: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=73377625

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16 hours ago · Like ·

Dan Segarra But that's not stopping them.
16 hours ago · Like

William Allen Sharpe Poliitics...one reason many left the Fed. To each his own. Thank you Master Segarra for making this forum available to all.
16 hours ago · Like

Jason Ladd Sorry, I see my post was a little confusing. Made from a phone by a tired guy with a newborn in the house. Ya'll got my meaning tho...
16 hours ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra I say let them have it. I would be unhappy if someone copied my logo and name too. Move on and focus on your future not the past.
16 hours ago · Like

William Allen Sharpe I agree sir.
16 hours ago · Like

Bob Straub Is this ALL fist logos SIR????
14 hours ago · Like

Russell Boon The USSBD shouldn't be able to sue. The Moo Duk Kwan belongs to the Korea Taekwondo Association and Hwang Kee was effectively voted off the board back in the 1960s. The KTA/World Taekwondo Federation could take issue with the legalities and rules and regs. The US Soo Bahk Do can't stop a Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan organisation from using the symbol
12 hours ago via mobile · Like

Frank Tsai Actually, the fist logo trade mark with the "Tang Soo" characters are still trademarked. http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=73576149

Latest Status Info
tarr.uspto.gov
If you are the applicant or applicant's attorney and have questions about this f...
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11 hours ago · Like ·

Frank Tsai Mr Boon sir, it is very interesting that you say The Moo Duk Kwan belongs to the KTA. Nevertheless "Moo Duk Kwan", 무덕관 and 武德館 are all trademarked in South Korea as well.
11 hours ago · Like

Art Pryor IF you read the article it was his students who turned him in to the AG for defrauding them. The SBD Federation testified that they owned the copyright, which they do. They registered it many years ago which is their right under the law in ...
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8 hours ago · Like · 1

Jc Cox I normally just read and don't post.. I was in the USTSDMDK AND LATER THE USSBDMDK for a long time O-Dan #30325. I left the federation and now run a successful MMA school under UFC vet Jorge Gurgel. PEOPLE. There is to much focus of patches...
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8 hours ago via mobile · Like

Art Pryor Furthermore, where you get your information that the MDK belongs to the TKD organization is highly questionable as there is the SBDMDK organization registered with the Korean Ministry of Education that goes back to the early 60's, so where is it that the MDK belongs to TKD? Seems to me you've been fed the TKD special Kool Aide.
8 hours ago · Like

Russell Boon The MDK was taken from Hwang Kee and legally became part of the KTA along with Chung Do Kwan (whose founder Won Kuk Lee first used the term Tang Soo Do), Oh Do Kwan, Ji Do Kwan etc
7 hours ago via mobile · Like

Russell Boon I have seen the minutes of the meetings held in the 60s. But for reference Doug Cook's 'Traditional Taekwondo' is an excellent book.
7 hours ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra ‎@ Art Pryor. Yes but now the federation is going to use this same tactic rest assured to enforce its rights of ownership. Gayronteed...
7 hours ago · Like

Dan Segarra ‎@ Frank Tsai they must have recently did that. It was abandoned for some time.
7 hours ago · Like

Dan Segarra I wonder why they've let Asian World of Martial Arts print all those items with the Fist Logo? I think not enforcing it or selectively enforcing it (i.e suing the smaller infringers) hurts their case legally.
7 hours ago · Like

Dan Segarra ‎@ Russell I'm pretty sure that was overturned in the Korean Supreme court. Hwang Kee fought for that for many years. I know he had some victory in the Supreme court.
7 hours ago · Like

Russell Boon Now you mention it I do recall that. I wonder if only him and affiliated KTA groups can use it. On another note I wonder where that leaves the United Kingdom Tang Soo (Soo Bahk) Do Federation who regularly use the logo
6 hours ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra Another country another battle.
6 hours ago · Like

Russell Boon ‎@ J c Cox. Tang Soo Do, like any martial art, is effective as long as practiced right. BJJ and 'MMA' which is usually a bit of kickboxing and wrestling us based on rules and winning in a cage or ring. A grappler would get unstuck quickly if an opponent started biting for example. But yes, of course, not if they tried a jump turning kick. It depends on the skill and common sense of the people involved.
6 hours ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra Agreed. The problem is many TMA think that their current skill set will protect them against anything. But one has to constantly improve. Look at gun defense for example. The MDK practiced that at one time. Guns have changed gotten better faster with different nomenclature. So the old methods would work only with the old guns. People must stop making excuses and add some basic ground skills to their game


Russell Boon The USSBD shouldn't be able to sue. The Moo Duk Kwan belongs to the Korea Taekwondo Association and Hwang Kee was effectively voted off the board back in the 1960s. The KTA/World Taekwondo Federation could take issue with the legalities and rules and regs. The US Soo Bahk Do can't stop a Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan organisation from using the symbol
12 hours ago via mobile · Like

Frank Tsai Actually, the fist logo trade mark with the "Tang Soo" characters are still trademarked. http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=73576149

Latest Status Info
tarr.uspto.gov
If you are the applicant or applicant's attorney and have questions about this f...
See More
11 hours ago · Like ·

Frank Tsai Mr Boon sir, it is very interesting that you say The Moo Duk Kwan belongs to the KTA. Nevertheless "Moo Duk Kwan", 무덕관 and 武德館 are all trademarked in South Korea as well.
11 hours ago · Like

Art Pryor IF you read the article it was his students who turned him in to the AG for defrauding them. The SBD Federation testified that they owned the copyright, which they do. They registered it many years ago which is their right under the law in ...
See More
8 hours ago · Like · 1

Jc Cox I normally just read and don't post.. I was in the USTSDMDK AND LATER THE USSBDMDK for a long time O-Dan #30325. I left the federation and now run a successful MMA school under UFC vet Jorge Gurgel. PEOPLE. There is to much focus of patches...
See More
8 hours ago via mobile · Like

Art Pryor Furthermore, where you get your information that the MDK belongs to the TKD organization is highly questionable as there is the SBDMDK organization registered with the Korean Ministry of Education that goes back to the early 60's, so where is it that the MDK belongs to TKD? Seems to me you've been fed the TKD special Kool Aide.
8 hours ago · Like

Russell Boon The MDK was taken from Hwang Kee and legally became part of the KTA along with Chung Do Kwan (whose founder Won Kuk Lee first used the term Tang Soo Do), Oh Do Kwan, Ji Do Kwan etc
7 hours ago via mobile · Like

Russell Boon I have seen the minutes of the meetings held in the 60s. But for reference Doug Cook's 'Traditional Taekwondo' is an excellent book.
7 hours ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra ‎@ Art Pryor. Yes but now the federation is going to use this same tactic rest assured to enforce its rights of ownership. Gayronteed...
7 hours ago · Like

Dan Segarra ‎@ Frank Tsai they must have recently did that. It was abandoned for some time.
7 hours ago · Like

Dan Segarra I wonder why they've let Asian World of Martial Arts print all those items with the Fist Logo? I think not enforcing it or selectively enforcing it (i.e suing the smaller infringers) hurts their case legally.
7 hours ago · Like

Dan Segarra ‎@ Russell I'm pretty sure that was overturned in the Korean Supreme court. Hwang Kee fought for that for many years. I know he had some victory in the Supreme court.
7 hours ago · Like

Russell Boon Now you mention it I do recall that. I wonder if only him and affiliated KTA groups can use it. On another note I wonder where that leaves the United Kingdom Tang Soo (Soo Bahk) Do Federation who regularly use the logo
6 hours ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra Another country another battle.
6 hours ago · Like

Russell Boon ‎@ J c Cox. Tang Soo Do, like any martial art, is effective as long as practiced right. BJJ and 'MMA' which is usually a bit of kickboxing and wrestling us based on rules and winning in a cage or ring. A grappler would get unstuck quickly if an opponent started biting for example. But yes, of course, not if they tried a jump turning kick. It depends on the skill and common sense of the people involved.
6 hours ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra Agreed. The problem is many TMA think that their current skill set will protect them against anything. But one has to constantly improve. Look at gun defense for example. The MDK practiced that at one time. Guns have changed gotten better faster with different nomenclature. So the old methods would work only with the old guns. People must stop making excuses and add some basic ground skills to their game.
6 hours ago · Like · 1

Dan Segarra When I say basic ground skills I'm not talking octagon, I'm talking similar skills but with the addition of weapons, biting gouging and multiple attackers. That changes the ground rules significantly. Also I've seen some top MMA guys not kn...
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5 hours ago · Like · 1

Jc Cox ‎@Mr Boon you are right, but remember when the UFC began there were only 2 rules. No biting and no eye gouging. BJJ was the over whelming winner in those contest. Prior to that the Gracie's had honed their skills on the streets of Rio. Havi...
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5 hours ago via mobile · Like

Jc Cox As for weapons, I trained and taught weapons defense for many years. Gun, knife, bong.. The reality is this. The Gracie family does teach this, and on a more realistic level, but Reguardless. Reality is 90% of those training weapons defense would servive a weapons attack against an in shape determined attacker.. It is what it is
5 hours ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra I agree whole heartedly that the Gracies are the masters of the ground. I have seen their weapon defense techniques and they are just as bad as the TMA defenses. When ever you have someone teach gun and knife that never actually shot one yo...
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4 hours ago · Like · 1

Daniel Bannard Bottom line there is only one Harvard university graduates are free to open thier own college just dont call it Harvard . Call it something unique to whatever you want.
Calling it Harvard university is misleading and wrong. Trying to use ha...
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3 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2

Jason Ladd Im starting to think why Id ever be involved in a martial art organization that seems more interested in law suits, courts, and arguing over their pretty little picture than in martial arts. I know thats over simplified but it IS the impression Im quickly getting....
3 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1

Dan Segarra This is such a sticky situation. The Harvard analogy is a good one Bannard Sabomnim. I found though that some people were using it before the federation and never actually joined it and the federation did not notice it or take action until ...
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2 hours ago · Like

Russell Boon Defo! The first UFCs were great but now its just a sport complete with advertising and show girls. We do 'real' self defence alongside what is classed as traditional Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. It blurs to some extent but we do pressure testi...
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2 hours ago via mobile · Like

Russell Boon Just for the record we have a fist on a St. George cross ensign (e.g the English flag). If you are not part of the MDK be it Hwang Kee's or the Korea Taekwondo Association you shouldn't use it!
2 hours ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra The smartest thing to do would be the federation to set up an associate membership. That would allow those that wish to use the logo permission to do so provided they are members in good standing but not on certificates and what not. That w...
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2 hours ago · Like

Dan Segarra I recommend anyone wanting to add to this pop over on the forum: https://apps.facebook.com/fbulletin/the_us_sbd_federation_vs_everyone_using_the_logo_and_term_mdk-364039.html

The U.S SBD Federation vs everyone using the logo and term MDK
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The U.S SBD Federation vs everyone using the logo and term MDK on fBulletin
2 hours ago · Like ·

Jc Cox I recommend people watch the UFC tonight. Understand that 1 million plus people will buy it on pay per view. And you will not see anything close to what you practice. But you will appreciate that the fighters are skilled. No board breaking,...
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about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra ‎@ JC I dont think anyone is arguing with you there. I had the honor of training with Master Larry Hartsell for many years when he would come into our area, I trained in tactical shooting etc. to round out my skills and make me as good as I...
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about an hour ago · Like

Russell Boon UFC is just a sport. We do stuff more realistic and street oriented than the UFC as do many other Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do, karate, kung fu etc schools. Wearing shorts and gloves and having a ref and Bud Light adverts is hardly realistic
about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra Oh boy here we go....
about an hour ago · Like

Jc Cox Thank you Dan. FYI we have met. When you were still with the federation. I trained with Kris Poole. Have a great day.
about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra You got it. My pleasure. Keep working hard and enjoy the UFC tonight I'm rooting for Silva.
about an hour ago · Like

Jc Cox Can't resist---@ Russell.. As a history buff you might want to look at the Origin or the UFC. It began as The Gracie Family challenging all forms of Martial Arts. Bare Nuckle, no rules. Even biting and groin strikes were legal. The results ...
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about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Frank Tsai Mr Cox, Please keep in mind, not all of us practice Martial Arts just to fight. It is a life philosophy that we can use our entire life to benefit physically, mentally and spirituality. Personally, I have and welcome cross training in othe...
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about an hour ago · Like

Jc Cox ‎@ Frank I certianly respect your loyalty that is not in question. I respect the MDK and other TMA. Just think many have lost site of reality. You say you don't train to fight. Then why study martial arts at all.. Just join your church, you...
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about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Frank Tsai Mr Cox, you are right, UFC is a sport. You are also right that a tournament can also be considered a sport since we are competing with each other. However, unlike the UFC, the traditional styles are not trying to hurt each other. We prom...
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59 minutes ago · Like

Jc Cox Frank hahaha.. I know exactly what you are saying.. Please know though, that the guys that train MMA, do have a brotherhood and respect for each other. If you want to compete in combative sports and not get hurt, or hurt the other guy. That alone seems unrealistic. Maybe kick ball is a better choice
54 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Frank Tsai ‎@Cox, perhaps you will change your mind 20-30 years from now. I actually prefer dodge ball
53 minutes ago · Like

Jc Cox It took me 34 years of training to draw this conclusion. 25 of which I spent in the MDK.. I have weighed both sides.
48 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Frank Tsai Very well. I will be interested to know how you feel when you are 60. Until then, I look forward to seeing you on the billboards for the next UFC
45 minutes ago · Like

Jc Cox Frank please don't feel like I was insulting, just debating, I do have an appreciation for older practitioners and wish you the best. You prob will never see me on a billboard, but you may hear my name mentioned or see a student from my school. Or a team mate. Either way good luck in all you do
39 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Dan Segarra Ironically the MDK had some basic ground fighting skills circa 1950. Not as evolved as todays MMA but they did address the scenario of what if you were attacked while on the ground. Somewhere that never made it to the states.
38 minutes ago · Like

Dan Segarra meant "Somehow" sorry.
37 minutes ago · Like

Jc Cox Check out my web site www.teamjgtxmma.com

JG Texas MMA
teamjgtxmma.com
JG Texas MMA
35 minutes ago via mobile · Like ·

Jason Ladd Im sure my BJJ inst, tng partners and my judo buddies will all be happy to know that those are not TMA's! LOL
How freakin' ignorant can folks get...?
Certain 'tactics' suit certain sports and individuals within those sports.
To assert the ever-so-erudite "TMA's dont work" is a sadly ignorant. Oh well....another day....
17 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Russell Boon ‎...to 'survive' a surprise attack whilst rolling around the ground. Add a bit of pressure testing, a few of the aggressor's 'mates' and injury or aggression and people last a few seconds on the ground before the 'attacker' pulls put the weapon and get them as the 'victim' is trying to apply an arm lock or ground pin. It is too dangerous to rely on ground-fighting. All aspects should be practiced and an open, adaptable and flexible mind adopted.
8 minutes ago · Like

Jc Cox Bahahaha.. Take a breath. And no they are really not TMA but I guess you can consider them along with boxing and wrestling. BTW who is is BJJ instructor.. I may know him. If he's legit
6 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Russell Boon This was part of my first comment: I know exactly what you are saying. The UFC in the original days was fantastic and did us 'traditionalists' a massive favour and woke us from our slumbers. What I am trying to say is 'real' Tang Soo Do/Karate etc - not the watered down rubbish so often taught - includes everything needed for self-defence. The guys on Okinawa who developed it did not do points sparring wear adidas chest shields or teach that an effective defence against a knife attack is to do a jump flying side kick. There art was brutal, effective and no-nonsense. That's the side of it we practice. Tang Soo Do / Tae Kwon Do was taught to the Korean military and is a different version that stuff taught in sports centres in the U.S. and U.K. What we do is more akin to Krav Maga although we do teach the traditional 'Do' side to it too, e.g. the moral aspect which is essential for beginner students. I have met loads of thugs that say they are 'cage fighters'. Guys with low IQs who like beating people up and bullying people. We shouldn't be teaching such idiots. People seem to think MMA (which can include all sorts) and BJJ
5 minutes ago · Like

Jc Cox Sorry Jason if you got butt hurt
4 minutes ago via mobile · Like
Jason Ladd Depends on how you define tradition, now, doesnt it? Yes they both are very much traditional. In fact there are some very interesting parallels between Hwang Kee and Helio Gracie. So, yes, they are TMA's. Id be happy to explain this to you in detail, but they are both TMA's.
I learn from a gentleman named Geoff Balme. Im not going on the litmus test of your familiarity to asses rather or not he's "legit" though.....lol

Jason Ladd

Depends on how you define tradition, now, doesnt it? Yes they both are very much traditional. In fact there are some very interesting parallels between Hwang Kee and Helio Gracie. So, yes, they are TMA's. Id be happy to explain this to you in detail, but they are both TMA's.
I learn from a gentleman named Geoff Balme. Im not going on the litmus test of your familiarity to asses rather or not he's "legit" though.....lol