WC > Whatevers Clever
Indians offended
Page 2 / 3 1 - 2 - 3 « previous | Next »
Indians offended
05/10/2011 5:48 am

Moderator
Administrator
Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/17/2010
Topics: 296
Posts: 1121
OFFLINE
actually they've been enslaved by government handouts. we've long since made them wards of the state, and that goes for all american indians. i mean im not brushed up on my geronimo history, but i can see your point about the whole citizenship thing.

i just hate seeing a once proud people reduced to dependency. i'm not going to get into the whole noble savage thing, but they had a way of life that i respect. the old way of life. the way we all used to live. a much more intimate existence with the world we inhabit. and then modernization came through and pretty much bulldozed that way of life. and i think that utter destruction of their culture has left scars to their psyche that run so deep, they still carry them to this day.

i mean perhaps unwittingly, the government has done the same to poorer segments of black americans. at least economically. i'm not mad at people who become dependents of the state, i feel sorry for them mostly. i mean they're stuck in this rut of government subsidized "getting by" but never prospering.
................
Whatever's Clever
Quote   
05/10/2011 9:54 pm

Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/20/2010
Topics: 63
Posts: 949
OFFLINE
i do too.  Believe it or not, i do have some sympathy for the Native Americans.   You are right in that they are addicted to dependancy of the govt dole.  (I suspect its what Obama wants all Americans to do too).  

but yeah...the indians got a raw deal many times in the past.  Trail of tears (thunk up by my own ancestor nonetheless).  Disease ridden blankets being issues to starving people on the reservations.  Custer's stupid  STUPID raid on Little Bighorn.  Sheer arrogance.  Wounded Knee massacre.  Etc.  

there were good folks on both sides back then and bad folks.  unfortunately historians today want to make us think the white men were evil and the indians were all innocent.  
................
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r49/DrHesper/Misc/TributeMartinGrelle.jpg
Quote   
05/10/2011 11:40 pm

Forum Expert


Regist.: 02/20/2011
Topics: 132
Posts: 521
OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
actually they've been enslaved by government handouts. we've long since made them wards of the state, and that goes for all american indians. i mean im not brushed up on my geronimo history, but i can see your point about the whole citizenship thing.

i just hate seeing a once proud people reduced to dependency. i'm not going to get into the whole noble savage thing, but they had a way of life that i respect. the old way of life. the way we all used to live. a much more intimate existence with the world we inhabit. and then modernization came through and pretty much bulldozed that way of life. and i think that utter destruction of their culture has left scars to their psyche that run so deep, they still carry them to this day.

i mean perhaps unwittingly, the government has done the same to poorer segments of black americans. at least economically. i'm not mad at people who become dependents of the state, i feel sorry for them mostly. i mean they're stuck in this rut of government subsidized "getting by" but never prospering.



I don't think the government payments are keeping many American Indians down, but rather keeping them alive.  Have you ever been to a reservation that doesn't have a casino associated with it?  There are several where I'm from.  They're not good places.  Most of the residents are incredibly poor.  Its not necessarily due to laziness, the reservations tend to be in areas where there aren't many jobs, and most of the residents can't afford to move or commute.  To many its a trap, and without governmental assistance many wouldn't be able to afford food, medicine, or electricity.  There is a reason why the suicide rate is over twice that for any other ethnic group (for 2006 the rate was ~26 for every 100,000) and why the rate of alcohol and other substance abuse is so high.

The "Noble Savage" stereotype is a load of crock.  These misconceptions tent to be spread by those who really know little about many of the tribes histories.  Many of the tribes were territorial and would fight each other for land and resources (ie Modoc, Iroquois, etc).  Some tribes would dig irrigation ditches as to be able to grow crops, while some others (such as the Mono in the area I'm from) would burn down swatches of conifer forests to incurring oak trees to grow in (a more primitive form of what commonly happens in parts of South America and South East Asia today that has lead to several ecological disasters).  This is hardly in harmony with the Earth or nature.  They did most of the 'bad' things that the European conquerors would do, its just that they could only do them at a stone age or bronze age level.
Quote   
05/11/2011 3:40 pm

Moderator
Administrator
Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/17/2010
Topics: 296
Posts: 1121
OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:


I don't think the government payments are keeping many American Indians down, but rather keeping them alive.  Have you ever been to a reservation that doesn't have a casino associated with it?  There are several where I'm from.  They're not good places.  Most of the residents are incredibly poor.  Its not necessarily due to laziness, the reservations tend to be in areas where there aren't many jobs, and most of the residents can't afford to move or commute.  To many its a trap, and without governmental assistance many wouldn't be able to afford food, medicine, or electricity.  There is a reason why the suicide rate is over twice that for any other ethnic group (for 2006 the rate was ~26 for every 100,000) and why the rate of alcohol and other substance abuse is so high.



from john stossel on newsmax.com. take it or leave it.

It stuns me when President Obama appears before Indian groups and says things like, "Few have been ignored by Washington for as long as Native Americans."

Ignored? Are you kidding me? They should be so lucky. The government has made most Indian tribes wards of the state.

Government manages their land, provides their healthcare, and pays for housing and child care. Twenty different departments and agencies have special "Native American" programs.

The result? Indians have the highest poverty rate, nearly 25 percent, and the lowest life expectancy of any group in America. Sixty-six percent are born to single mothers.

Nevertheless, Indian activists want more government "help."

It is intuitive to assume that, when people struggle, government "help" is the answer. The opposite is true. American groups who are helped the most, do the worst.

Consider the Lumbees of Robeson County, N.C. — a tribe not recognized as sovereign by the government and therefore ineligible for most of the "help" given other tribes. The Lumbees do much better than those recognized tribes.

Lumbees own their homes and succeed in business. They include real estate developer Jim Thomas, who used to own the Sacramento Kings basketball team, and Jack Lowery, who helped start the Cracker Barrel Restaurants. Lumbees started the first Indian-owned bank, which now has 12 branches.

The Lumbees' wealth is not from casino money.

"We don't have any casinos. We have 12 banks," says Ben Chavis, another successful Lumbee businessman. He also points out that Robeson County looks different from most Indian reservations.

"There's mansions. They look like English manors. I can take you to one neighborhood where my people are from and show you nicer homes than the whole Sioux reservation."

Despite this success, professional "victims" activists want Congress to make the Lumbees dependent — like other tribes. U.S. Rep. Mike McIntyre, D-N.C., has introduced the Lumbee Recognition Act, which would give the Lumbees the same "help" other tribes get — about $80 million a year. Some members of the tribe support the bill.

Lawyer Elizabeth Homer, who used to be the U.S. Interior Department's director of Indian land trusts, says the Lumbees ought to get federal recognition.

"The Lumbees have been neglected and left out of the system, and have been petitioning for 100 years . . . They're entitled, by the way."

People like Homer will never get it. Lumbees do well because they've divorced themselves from government handouts. Washington's neglect was a godsend.

Some Lumbees don't want the handout.

"We shouldn't take it!" Chavis said. He says if federal money comes, members of his tribe "are going to become welfare cases. It's going to stifle creativity. On the reservations, they haven't trained to be capitalists. They've been trained to be communists."

Tribal governments and the Bureau of Indian Affairs manage most Indian land. Indians compete to serve on tribal councils because they can give out the government's money. Instead of seeking to become entrepreneurs, members of tribes aspire to become bureaucrats.

"You can help your girlfriend; you can help your girlfriend's mama. It's a great program!" Chavis said sarcastically.

Because a government trust controls most Indian property, individuals rarely build nice homes or businesses. "No individual on the reservation owns the land. So they can't develop it," Chavis added.

"Look at my tribe. We have title and deeds to our land. That's the secret. I raise cattle. I can do what I want to because it's my private property."

I did a TV segment on the Lumbees that I included in a special called "Freeloaders." That won me the predictable vitriol. Apparently, I'm ignorant of history and a racist.

The criticism misses the point. Yes, many years ago white people stole the Indians' land and caused great misery. And yes, the government signed treaties with the tribes that make Indians "special." But that "specialness" has brought the Indians socialism. It's what keeps them dependent and poor.

On the other hand, because the U.S. government never signed a treaty with the Lumbees, they aren't so "special" in its eyes. That left them mostly free.

Freedom lets them prosper.

................
Whatever's Clever
Quote   
05/11/2011 4:28 pm

Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/20/2010
Topics: 63
Posts: 949
OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

I don't think the government payments are keeping many American Indians down, but rather keeping them alive.  Have you ever been to a reservation that doesn't have a casino associated with it?  There are several where I'm from.  They're not good places.  Most of the residents are incredibly poor.  Its not necessarily due to laziness, the reservations tend to be in areas where there aren't many jobs, and most of the residents can't afford to move or commute.  To many its a trap, and without governmental assistance many wouldn't be able to afford food, medicine, or electricity.  There is a reason why the suicide rate is over twice that for any other ethnic group (for 2006 the rate was ~26 for every 100,000) and why the rate of alcohol and other substance abuse is so high.

The "Noble Savage" stereotype is a load of crock.  These misconceptions tent to be spread by those who really know little about many of the tribes histories.  Many of the tribes were territorial and would fight each other for land and resources (ie Modoc, Iroquois, etc).  Some tribes would dig irrigation ditches as to be able to grow crops, while some others (such as the Mono in the area I'm from) would burn down swatches of conifer forests to incurring oak trees to grow in (a more primitive form of what commonly happens in parts of South America and South East Asia today that has lead to several ecological disasters).  This is hardly in harmony with the Earth or nature.  They did most of the 'bad' things that the European conquerors would do, its just that they could only do them at a stone age or bronze age level.



I have been to a reservation.  And you are right.  The one in Cherokee NC is a dump.  And it has a Casino too!  But its purely a dump.  But they are a sovereign nation and elect their own leaders (and accept handouts from the US govt).

Here's what I dont understand.  Since unemployment is so high...whats to keep them tied down to the reservation?  Nothing...that's what.  children from other ethnic groups grow up and leave their hometown looking for new employment all the time.  Shouldnt the indians too?

But why do that when they get a govt check???  There is little incentive.
................
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r49/DrHesper/Misc/TributeMartinGrelle.jpg
Quote   
05/12/2011 12:41 am

Forum Expert


Regist.: 02/20/2011
Topics: 132
Posts: 521
OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

I don't think the government payments are keeping many American Indians down, but rather keeping them alive.  Have you ever been to a reservation that doesn't have a casino associated with it?  There are several where I'm from.  They're not good places.  Most of the residents are incredibly poor.  Its not necessarily due to laziness, the reservations tend to be in areas where there aren't many jobs, and most of the residents can't afford to move or commute.  To many its a trap, and without governmental assistance many wouldn't be able to afford food, medicine, or electricity.  There is a reason why the suicide rate is over twice that for any other ethnic group (for 2006 the rate was ~26 for every 100,000) and why the rate of alcohol and other substance abuse is so high.

The "Noble Savage" stereotype is a load of crock.  These misconceptions tent to be spread by those who really know little about many of the tribes histories.  Many of the tribes were territorial and would fight each other for land and resources (ie Modoc, Iroquois, etc).  Some tribes would dig irrigation ditches as to be able to grow crops, while some others (such as the Mono in the area I'm from) would burn down swatches of conifer forests to incurring oak trees to grow in (a more primitive form of what commonly happens in parts of South America and South East Asia today that has lead to several ecological disasters).  This is hardly in harmony with the Earth or nature.  They did most of the 'bad' things that the European conquerors would do, its just that they could only do them at a stone age or bronze age level.



I have been to a reservation.  And you are right.  The one in Cherokee NC is a dump.  And it has a Casino too!  But its purely a dump.  But they are a sovereign nation and elect their own leaders (and accept handouts from the US govt).

Here's what I dont understand.  Since unemployment is so high...whats to keep them tied down to the reservation?  Nothing...that's what.  children from other ethnic groups grow up and leave their hometown looking for new employment all the time.  Shouldnt the indians too?

But why do that when they get a govt check???  There is little incentive.



It takes money to move, something many don't have. I addressed that issue in my original post.
Quote   
05/13/2011 9:42 am

Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/20/2010
Topics: 63
Posts: 949
OFFLINE
Yep.  I know that better than most.  However, many americans leave small towns for higher paying jobs.  American indians used to work building skyscrapers in NYC and other big cities.  But we arent building anymore.  Jobs are drying up.  Its been said that this administration wants Americans to be tied to a govt check.  So I guess all our communities will soon look like indian reservations.  
................
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r49/DrHesper/Misc/TributeMartinGrelle.jpg
Quote   
05/13/2011 12:29 pm

Moderator
Administrator
Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/17/2010
Topics: 296
Posts: 1121
OFFLINE
people were much poorer back when they were spending their life savings on tickets to steam across the atlantic and land at ellis island, but they did it anyway.
................
Whatever's Clever
Quote   
05/13/2011 1:03 pm

Forum Expert


Regist.: 02/20/2011
Topics: 132
Posts: 521
OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
people were much poorer back when they were spending their life savings on tickets to steam across the atlantic and land at ellis island, but they did it anyway.



Only those who had the money to board a ship came, the rest remained behind.  Also, most of those immigrants groups already had a community established over here to help them get on their feet (ie china towns, little Italy's, etc).
Quote   
05/13/2011 1:18 pm

Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/20/2010
Topics: 63
Posts: 949
OFFLINE
Thats probably true for the 1800s.  My ancestors came over before however and there was nothing but indians and a few colonies.  
................
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r49/DrHesper/Misc/TributeMartinGrelle.jpg
Quote   
05/15/2011 6:16 am

Moderator
Administrator
Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/17/2010
Topics: 296
Posts: 1121
OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:


Only those who had the money to board a ship came



we're still talking about some seriously poor people. and the point is, it can be done, but it may not be easy.
................
Whatever's Clever
Quote   
05/15/2011 3:13 pm

Forum Fanatic


Regist.: 04/10/2011
Topics: 12
Posts: 284
OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:


It takes money to move, something many don't have. I addressed that issue in my original post.



Not really. I moved out of my parents house to start my own life with less than $50. Where there is a will, there is a way.
Quote   
05/17/2011 12:23 am

Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/20/2010
Topics: 63
Posts: 949
OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:


Only those who had the money to board a ship came



we're still talking about some seriously poor people. and the point is, it can be done, but it may not be easy.

Yeah, and those immigrants likely sold all their belongings to be able to afford the journey.  My ancestors came to S. Carolina with the promise of a land grant.  The colony was giving land away to immigrants who would come and settle.  It wanted to build up the colony.  So they were leaving the poverty of the old world and escaping to the opportunities of the new world.  They fought in the Am. Revolution in the southern campaign (yes I'm bragging Lol) probably because they had escaped English oppression and wanted to defend this new land from the English.  They were able to farm the land, turned it into a large plantation, moved to Alabama when Andrew Jackson moved the indians out and became very successful plantation owners there.  So they helped colonize S. Carolina and Alabama when it was just a territory.

But it all began when land was given away freely to anyone who would move there.
................
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r49/DrHesper/Misc/TributeMartinGrelle.jpg
Quote   
05/17/2011 5:48 am

Moderator
Administrator
Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/17/2010
Topics: 296
Posts: 1121
OFFLINE
do you owe reparations?
................
Whatever's Clever
Quote   
05/17/2011 11:50 pm

Senior Forum Expert


Regist.: 11/20/2010
Topics: 63
Posts: 949
OFFLINE
I'm not responsible for anything they did in those days.  So should I owe reparations?  
................
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r49/DrHesper/Misc/TributeMartinGrelle.jpg
Quote   
Page 2 / 3 1 - 2 - 3 « previous | Next »
Login with Facebook to post
Preview