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"To say that God made the universe gives us no explanation of the beginnings of things. If we are told that God made the universe, the question immediately arises: Who made God? Did he always exist, or was there some power back of that? Did he create matter out of nothing, or is his existence coextensive with matter? The problem is still there. What is the origin of it all? If, on the other hand, one says that the universe was not made by God, that it always existed, he has the same difficulty to confront. To say that the universe was here last year, or millions of years ago, does not explain its origin. This is still a mystery. As to the question of the origin of things, man can only wonder and doubt and guess." -Clarence Darrow, Why I Am An Agnostic (1929)

How did it all begin?

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Bryant, I think you are really starting to develop an unhealthy dislike of religion. Why so many posts dealing with something you don't even believe in???

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Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:
Bryant, I think you are really starting to develop an unhealthy dislike of religion. Why so many posts dealing with something you don't even believe in???

Things have been slow here, so I've been attempting to stir the proverbial hornets net to try to evoke lively discussion.  As for the topic, I think its an interesting issue.  How did things begin?  To the best of my knowledge there aren't any scientific models for anything proceeding the big bang.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:


Things have been slow here, so I've been attempting to stir the proverbial hornets net to try to evoke lively discussion.  As for the topic, I think its an interesting issue.  How did things begin?  To the best of my knowledge there aren't any scientific models for anything proceeding the big bang.

Well Bryant, if you really look at it objectively.....creation is the big bang....just greatly abridged, put into a few days and the credit given to some dude. Let there be light=star creation; then heavens and earth=solidification of cosmic dust into planets and their atmosphere; on and on and on. So what I wanna know is: if the basic steps are right.....how the hell did primitive man know ('cause the idea of creation predates Christianity by many centuries)???

All things will be known in time. That is an inevitability. This ain't that time though. I am so glad I am not you. I know many scientists have to feel like they are on a wild goose chase while they are looking for answers. Then just when they think they know.....along comes Pluto if you know what I mean.  

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Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:


Things have been slow here, so I've been attempting to stir the proverbial hornets net to try to evoke lively discussion.  As for the topic, I think its an interesting issue.  How did things begin?  To the best of my knowledge there aren't any scientific models for anything proceeding the big bang.

Well Bryant, if you really look at it objectively.....creation is the big bang....just greatly abridged, put into a few days and the credit given to some dude.

This is an interesting point and the bases of many religious scientists interpretation of genesis.  That said, creation is only the big bang is we assume that nothing proceeded the big bang.  I'm not certain of how once could prove that one way or another.  The only thing I can think of (disclaimer, as I do not pretend to have exhaustive knowledge of astrophysics) that could give us insight would be to find something beyond the reach of the big bang (assuming that such a place exists).  How everything could have been affected is hard for my simple mind to fathom.

Let there be light=star creation; then heavens and earth=solidification of cosmic dust into planets and their atmosphere; on and on and on. So what I wanna know is: if the basic steps are right.....how the hell did primitive man know ('cause the idea of creation predates Christianity by many centuries)???  

But the basic steps really aren't right.  Genesis places the order of creation as 1) Earth and heavens, 2) water, 3) the sun, 4) the moon (incorrectly described as a light much like the sun), 5) the stars, etc...  The order is completely off, as many stars predate the Sun, the Sun predates the Earth and the Moon (both of which are probably about the same age).  Moreover, Genesis states that humans have always existed in their modern form, that man was created of silicon based material, that women where created from the rib bone of man, etc.  In short, the Genesis hypothesis has more holes than a spaghetti strainer!  It was a noble attempt of Bronze Age man at trying to understand the world around him, but alas he was terribly wrong.

All things will be known in time. That is an inevitability. This ain't that time though. I am so glad I am not you. I know many scientists have to feel like they are on a wild goose chase while they are looking for answers. Then just when they think they know.....along comes Pluto if you know what I mean.  

Indeed, we are a great distance away from understanding a great many things.  Hopefully scientists will be there whittling away at the secrets of natural law until our species invariably gives way, but even then I doubt we will know near to all there is to learn.  Along that path scientists will invariably chase some red herrings, however most revolutions in science consist of breakthroughs that enhance upon the previous models as opposed to replacing them wholesale (that is to say, a good model explains the available data well, a better model will often expand upon or otherwise build upon elements of the initial model).

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Mark Simmons:
Bryant, I think you are really starting to develop an unhealthy dislike of religion. Why so many posts dealing with something you don't even believe in???

Things have been slow here, so I've been attempting to stir the proverbial hornets net to try to evoke lively discussion.

I did that last year and got yelled at.

But Mark is right.  You seem to have a lot of questions about religion.  Its been my experience that often when people begin askingquestions about God or Jesus or religion out of the blue, they often are beginning to question their own viewpoint on the matter.

Is there something you'd like to talk about?