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Do you mind going through and citing your sources.  That way we can have some fun with this.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
Western nations are primarily Christian Nations.  And the tenents of Christianity teach that people treat one another the way they, themselves would like to be treated.  Christianty teaches compassion, goodness and moraltiy. So it was inevitable that eventually the people (wh finally were able to read teBible for themselves) began to deman that govts treat the people this way.

But thats not the way it is.  The first Republic was founded by pagans five hundred years before the birth of Christ.  The first democracy was founded by, yet again, pagans at around 500 BC.  Did Rousseau cite Christianity as the reason for freedom in Social Contract?  Was Voltaire motivated by faith in Christianity?  While the moral philosophy of Jesus was influential on Kant and while Locke was certainly very Christian, it is very historically inaccurate to try to attribute most of the western ideals of individual rights and anti-authoritarianism to Christianity (the religion used to justify monarchies and slavery into the 1800's).

True they were begun by pagans.  But the early Roman Republic was not noted for its compassion to people or its neighbors was it?  Only when Christian philosophy came into being did we adopt laws to protect the weak, the helpless, the poor and downtrodden.  Rome had law but they were a brital depraved society.  As for Voltaire and Rousseau....I dont hear them cited very much these days.  From what I can tell, the only people who champion those two are liberal philosophy professors and athiests.  They were not the founders of compassion in our modern societies. Only Christian compassion (or at least Judeo Christian values) did this.

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
China and Japan are primarily athiest countries.  (I dunno about S Korea).  But N. Korea is athiest too.  And Islamic nations do not adhere much to the compassionate teachings of Christianity.  Those nations all have brutal, political philosophies and the govts and dictators do not value their people like the West does.  Inividuals have few rights.


THAT's why they are they way they are.  Rule by the sword...not by the will of the people.

So by your explanation China and Japan are brutal authoritarian countries because they are mostly atheist?  Despite the fact that Japan has a democratic government with individualistic rights?  According to this the UK and many Scandinavian countries would likewise lack you "western christian values" because they have dominantly atheist populations.

Yes, that is my explanation.  They are brutal and do not value life as we do.  Have you seen how those people live and how little the govts care about them over there?  Democracy does not = compassion.  And China CERTAINLY doesnt care much fior individual human rights or its neighbors.

Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
[I wouldn't be so bold as to say the Islamic countries are so horrible because they lack the compassionate teachings of Christianity.  The witch hunts and the Reconquista don't say much about Christian compassion.  The Islamic countries are so horrible because unlike in Europe, too few people have been bold enough to risk their lives and challenge the religious institutions (a la Galileo).

But, witghrespect, what you are neglectingto mention is that the witch hunts do not define Christian values.  When you look at what the Jesus taught, and compare i with what Muhammed taught, the two are as different as night and day.  Even today many moderate Muslims are racists.  (They hate the Jews).  And that goes way beyond politics.  Even if Israel gave all their land to Palestine, they would STILL hate the Jews.

Otoh, Jesus taught us what?  Love your enemy.  Love one another.  Etc.  THAT is where our modern values come from.  Not some paganistic view of pre Christian Rome.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
point two. our education system is a joke. you mention that the private institutions (universities) are the only ones succeeding. i think you get what i'm saying there. additionally, again university students are being bombarded with this anti-western, anti-capitalism, anti-religion propaganda. there is no longer any doubt that college professors are WAY out there to the left.

Exactly what I've been trying to say since way back when Mato and I went a few rounds in the myspace group.  Having worked in the University...the world of academics and philosophers I learned a thing or two.  1st, college students are going through an indoctrination by these professors that promote values that are normally very different from their parents.  70% of students who come from a Christian home and background wind up leaving the faith (for a time) once they go to college.  Because liberal professors are telling kids day after day that your parent's religion is dumb.  Your parent's values are antiquated.  Its why mainstream media these days are liberals and why the NYTimes and MSNBC and the like hate conservatives and why political correctness has plagued our culture.

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
which leads me to point three; your last post. i understand the moral equivalency you're trying to draw here. that the muslims are only 4-5-600 years behind us, because christians once did horrible things like sharia countries do now. but as i asked in another thread, do we really have 600 years to wait for them "catch up?" at the rate we're going, we'll be phased out in a hundred.

and i dont think that the muslims ever will become as moderate as the christian west. why? the teachings are completely different. islam is a very hate filled religion with punishment for enemies, and a conquest-like mentality. polar opposites with jesus' teachings of peace and tolerance. i also think you need to brush up on your christianity, because jesus was very anti-authoritarian and rebellious. he spoke out against the hierarchy of the jewish priests, and i'm sure would do the same of the catholic church. but the papacy is a hold over from the age of monarchs in europe, and for much of its history, the pope was just another emperor. but who was it who primarily settled america? protestants, with their strong distaste for the heirarchy of "the church."

Careful.  Lol!  You'll have another left wing lurker wriiting a fairwell manifesto and saying goodbye to us forever.     

But I agree with you.  That is the point I was trying to highlight.  If you disregard human history and just get down to the brass tacks and look hard at what the two faiths teach, its rather simple to see that christianity is a faith of compassion and forgiveness and love.  And Islam is one of bloodshed and punishment and death.  I said it before and I'll say it again...Islam is evil.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
I get what you are saying, but I don't necessarily agree.  While Jesus may have taught compassion, the other half of the book spews hate.  While the New Testament was meant to amend the Old, no one ever went in and crossed out where the Old was in conflict.  Because of this people can go and correctly site passages condoning all sorts of evil actions from the OT.  Exodus 22:20 justified killing non-Christians while Exodus 22:18 condoned the witch hunts.  A nasty side of Christianity exists, but as a result of social changes in the last couple hundred years people have been reading the bible differently.  You don't hear many stories about Christians "suffer[ering] a witch to live."  If the social values in the muslim countries would change their reading of their holy books and suggestive accompaniments would change.

This is where many people (even Christians) make a mistake.

Jesus said He came not to change the law but to fullfill it.  (Mt 5:17-18)
And people like to cite that to make their point.  But what they leave out is that when Jesus died on the Cross and was raised on the 3rd day...he did Fullfill it.  At that point we were no longer under the law.  We didnt have to sacrifice animals anymore...we are now allowed to help a friend in need on the sabbath if they need help and we are no longer bound by the old law.  For if we were, Jesus' sacrifice would be in vain...right?  

Also remember that the old Law prescribed stoning for the harlot.  But what did Jesus do when he came across those who wished to stone the fallen woman?  The old customs said that Lepers were to be isolated and ostracised because they were seen to be cursed by God.  But Jesus healed the lepers, the blind, the possessed.

Also Ex 22:20 says that the person who sacrifices to another God shall be destroyed.  I doesnt say YOU should destroy him.  That passage doesnt justify killing non-Christians because Exodus was pre Christian (there werent any Christians) and because it is talking about God destroying the non believer.  (Vengeance is mine? Etc).  

Ex 22:18 speaks of witches.  Witchcraft was an offense punishable by death not because the witch was a non-believer.  Not all non believers were to be put to death.  (Otherwise Israel might have gone to war with the Greeks and India and everyone else).  Witchcraft was punishable because, to the believer God god is the basic and universal reality.  People who maintain a covenant relationship with God are to rely in God for all things.  To rely on magic is to abandon God.  It is to forsake Him.  And you dont want to break a convenant with God.  And God didnt want people around who preyed on His people with charms and sorcery, enticing them to break their covenant.  A covenant is a very serious thing.

We have the death penalty prescribed for certain offenses today.  I wonder if how many think this death penalty mean that America spews hate?

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I'm reading some articles and working on a response.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
as the dominant force in shaping the current world order, we tend to view our western values and beliefs as the world norm. additionally, we tend to view history through a western prism. from greece and rome, to the dark ages, the renaissance, the discovery of the new world, the founding of america, the age of enlightenment, the industrial revolution, the world wars, and the UN. this is how we see history as having taken place, and through all that time, we've learned many, many hard lessons in the progression toward our modern perceptions of human rights, and freedom.

but most of the world still doesn't share our ideas of liberty and western democracy. the chinese historically haven't cared about human rights or liberty; neither have the russians, the muslims, large portions of africa, southeast asia, etc. see, most corners of the globe had their own mighty empires, and stem from an entirely different cultural progression. where we see hard lessons learned and now understand the consequences of our actions (as a people), many others see us as hypocrites and wonder who are we to tell them about such concepts of peace and justice. where we see hard lessons learned, they see oppression, occupation, and imperialism, and they resent us for our success on the world stage, because it's come at their expense.

for many of the peoples listed above, "the cause" takes precedent over the individuals. this is true under islam, communism, socialism, or any number of isms. so as these groups grow in influence and prestige, and the west diminishes its dominant presence on the world scene, i think it's important to caution against believing that the world will continue to progress more toward our western ideals and values. in fact, many want to take back what they view as stolen from them, during the course of our time on top, essentially wiping out centuries of history.

Well like I said before in our MS group, nothing lasts forever. Empire rise and fall. I believe it will remain this way as long as humans walk the earth. Some folks are so used to being controlled that they don't anything better. I wish they did because when I was in the navy traveling the world it really taught me to grow up a bit. When I saw how people live in other countries it really taught me to be thankful for what I have back home. Other countries see what we have and either move here or stay where they're at and hate us (I'm referring to all nonwestern civs). I know religion plays a big roll in our oppositions like always.

Other people are so influenced by their religion that they view us as evil. Many people in this country feel the same way about other religions. Overall we need to look at where all the fun and happiness is. I've seen how people live in Saudi Arabia and I would move out in a heartbeat given I had the chance. According to polls the US isn't one of the happiest countries, but I've also notice that the most prosperous countries in the world such as the US, UK Canada, Australia etc also contain the most liberal progressives. I don't see a need to be so progressive if you're already live in the one of the best countries in the world. I guess when you're happy you also find a quick way to be unhappy. This is common in the human psyche.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:
Do you mind going through and citing your sources.  That way we can have some fun with this.

well, i'm going to be posting a george soros thread to tie it all together, but it's going to take a while to finish.

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I dunno if the reason others hate us has so much to do with religion as it is values.  And one reason I keep talking about Islam being evil isnt because all (or even most) muslims are that way.  But its the values that followers have.  They are far different from most everyone else's.  Christians value freedom and life.  Jews do as well.  Even Buddhists do as far aas I can tell and Hindus (though the caste system is problematic).

People's values come from faith.  Even for the athiest...they likely learned some values from a believer at some point in their life.  But when you live your life around a people who are very devout and whos faith constantly teaches hatred of infidels (ie...non believers), then their news, their entertainment media, their buddies at the local shop or barber are bound to influence ya.

Even though it is waining somewhat, people in Western Europe and the Americas are largel Christian.  Even if they arent devout, the values (though watered down at times) remain.  Yes, we have immorality in our media but people here still believe i freedom and rights of the individual.  For the most part we have compassion.  I dont really think it is as prevelant in the Middle or Far East.