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and i want to keep this thread very focused, because the wider issue can be a powder-keg. anyway, here's my question. even if you support obamacare, does anyone really believe that it actually helps cut the deficit? or - again, even if you support it - do you see that claim as just a bunch of accounting gimmickry?

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I will play devil's advocate. Yes, it will cut the deficit because now people don't have to worry about purchasing health insurance and can focus that money on investments and growing the economy. Also, it is only "accounting gimmickry" because everything is accounting gimmickry.

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Well, if Obama Care is merely a govt insurance policy that gave health care to everyone...and other policies were eliminated, then yes...it might do that.  But Obama care isnt a govt insurance policy and it doesn't eliminate other insurance policies.  Its not free or even reduced pricing health care.  It doesnt allow everyone to just go to the dr or hospital and get the care they need...free or at a reduced price.

Obama Care, as I understand it, is a series of laws designed to place demands on current health providers.  It's 1,017 pages long and written in an alien form of bureaucratic English that can barely be decoded by earthlings.

***Edit (Not laws...but ...policies I guess.  Rules that other insurers must adhere to and the whole package was signed into 1 law...I think.  ***

Personally I cant see how any health plan can help reduce our deficit....unless the plan cleans up some stuff where we are wasting money.  Otherwise, any plan requires that money be spent.  And spending money is not the way to save.

(Btw...it has been estimated that Obamacare will cost $6 trillion over a 10-year period.)

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Most of the Obamacare programs that pay out benefits will start up in 2014. However, the taxes start right away. Ten years of revenue coming in, and only six years of benefits being paid out. In the first 10 years of the program, $1.4 trillion will be spent, but in the next 10 years $2.6 trillion will be paid out.

The CLASS Act brings in $70 billion of revenue starting right away. These funds are used to pay for the new entitlement programs. But those who pay into the CLASS Act program will eventually start drawing benefits. Unfortunately for them, there will be nothing in these accounts. The CBO score only accounts for the revenue from the CLASS Act, not the benefits that will be drawn from it.

The bill itself authorizes hundreds of billions of dollars to run new programs. What the bill doesn't do is provide the Department of Health and Human Services with any money to implement these programs. CBO's cost estimate does not include the $115 billion it will require to actually run these new programs. If Congress does not appropriate this money in the coming years, the promised benefits will never be paid out.

When you add in gimmicks like double-counting Medicare savings and ignoring the cost of the Medicare doc fix, Obamacare actually increases the deficit by $701 billion in just the first 10 years.

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Do you think the whole thing should be repealed? Or should it be amended?  Is there anything in there worth keeping?  Or should they just start over?

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i say start over. i mean there are like 3-4 things in the bill that democrats can point to that the people actually like, out of thousands of pages worth of bad legislation. the only one that immediately comes to mind is the pre-existing condition thing. those can easily be incorporated into a new bill. the main problem with obamacare is that it doesn't actually do anything to lower healthcare costs. all it is is a gateway toward a single payer system.

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I still dont know a whole lot about this plan.  But here are some things I do like:

Insurance companies are barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits eliminated and annual limits restricted.

Insurers barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

Uninsured adults with a pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage.

A new program under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.

Individuals with income up to 133% of the federal poverty level qualify for Medicaid coverage.

Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

Also I think this plan allows people to choose from companies nation-wide, rather than just in your small area.

Things I dont like:

Most people required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don't.

The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35% from 1.45% for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000.

A 2.9% excise tax is imposed on the sale of medical devices.

I'm also a little worried about this bill if it contains language that makes taxpayers pay for abortions.  And then there's the whole death panel thing that is bothersome.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Young:
I still dont know a whole lot about this plan.  But here are some things I do like:

Insurance companies are barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits eliminated and annual limits restricted.

Insurers barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

Uninsured adults with a pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage.

A new program under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.

Individuals with income up to 133% of the federal poverty level qualify for Medicaid coverage.

Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

you already said that one, and i think this covers both the second and third ones you mentioned.

Also I think this plan allows people to choose from companies nation-wide, rather than just in your small area.

negative. this is one the proposals the republicans were, and are trying to introduce.

Things I dont like:

Most people required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don't.

ALL people are.

The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35% from 1.45% for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000.

A 2.9% excise tax is imposed on the sale of medical devices.

I'm also a little worried about this bill if it contains language that makes taxpayers pay for abortions.  And then there's the whole death panel thing that is bothersome.

well, the republicans are working on legislation that flat out denies any federal dollars from going toward abortion, as opposed to obama's signing statement, which is not law. there is also a provision in the bill that requires all businesses to to file a tax form for every purchase over $600. or something to that tune, i can't remember precisely. there's also the provision requiring all businesses with more than 50 employees to provide healthcare, which gives little incentive for companies to hire more than 49 employees.

so basically, you were able to name 4 things you like about the bill.