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and when i say the middle east, i mean israel and palestine. iran's influence is still growing over the region. mubarak has been removed, and supplanted by a radical islamic coalition. the same "democracy movement" is taking place in syria. not that mubarak and assad were good guys, but they declined to make war with israel. lebanon was obviously ahead of the curve, and hizbollah basically owns it now. and now - though it's hardly being reported on - hamas and fatah have made an accord, and are apparently friends now, calling for a palestinian state WITH JERUSALEM AS ITS CAPITOL. save for jordan and iraq (maybe) israel has been surrounded by fundamentalists who have openly called for the jews expulsion from the holy land.

this summer - starting just 10 days from now, when the next "freedom flotilla" sets sail - things are going to get ugly.

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I've been watching this too.  Let me make this clear.  I do not believe that the Jews will ever give up Israel or Jerusalem...and I don't think anyone has the power to force them to do so.  They are the biggest, toughest dog in the region.  It will take an invasion of all the Mid East States plus china and Russia to have a chance.  But they'll never give their lands away.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
and when i say the middle east, i mean israel and palestine. iran's influence is still growing over the region. mubarak has been removed, and supplanted by a radical islamic coalition. the same "democracy movement" is taking place in syria. not that mubarak and assad were good guys, but they declined to make war with israel. lebanon was obviously ahead of the curve, and hizbollah basically owns it now. and now - though it's hardly being reported on - hamas and fatah have made an accord, and are apparently friends now, calling for a palestinian state WITH JERUSALEM AS ITS CAPITOL. save for jordan and iraq (maybe) israel has been surrounded by fundamentalists who have openly called for the jews expulsion from the holy land.

this summer - starting just 10 days from now, when the next "freedom flotilla" sets sail - things are going to get ugly.

I don't think very much of that is true.  Iran's influence isn't growing, its waning.  The uprising in Syria is (so far as I can tell) is a westernizing movement and has been interpreted to be very anti-Iran.  Without Syria as an ally, Iran will have a much harder time trying to arm Hezbollah in Lebanon.  I've yet to see any credible reports suggesting that the current movement is fundamentalist muslim, but rather trying to gain greater individual rights.  I like wise haven't hear a word about 'radical Islamic coalitions' in Egypt from anyone but Mubarak, who was trying to keep the US on his side.  I've also read articles describing conflict between the Iranian government and their supreme leader, which may suggest a weakening of Iran.  So far, I haven't hear anything from Egypt that would suggest much of a change on their Israel policy.  The people of Jordan have also demanded more individual rights, however their government obliged allowing for peace to continue.  The Fatah and Hamas reconciliation does worry me a bit, hopefully Fatah will be a more positive influence on Hamas.  The idea of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as the joint Palestine/Israel capital was the original plan when the two countries were created, so thats noting new (although its just as stupid now as it was then).

So in short, from what I can tell most of the ongoing actions in the Middle East will favor the US and more "western" principles.  My main concern is if the rebels in Libya don't succeed (so long as we don't invade/occupy I think they will continue to treat us favorably, but if they loose the terrorist Gaddafi may try something) and the Palestine/Israel issue.  

-Line58

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Originally Posted by Bryant Platt:

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
and when i say the middle east, i mean israel and palestine. iran's influence is still growing over the region. mubarak has been removed, and supplanted by a radical islamic coalition. the same "democracy movement" is taking place in syria. not that mubarak and assad were good guys, but they declined to make war with israel. lebanon was obviously ahead of the curve, and hizbollah basically owns it now. and now - though it's hardly being reported on - hamas and fatah have made an accord, and are apparently friends now, calling for a palestinian state WITH JERUSALEM AS ITS CAPITOL. save for jordan and iraq (maybe) israel has been surrounded by fundamentalists who have openly called for the jews expulsion from the holy land.

this summer - starting just 10 days from now, when the next "freedom flotilla" sets sail - things are going to get ugly.

I don't think very much of that is true.  Iran's influence isn't growing, its waning.  The uprising in Syria is (so far as I can tell) is a westernizing movement and has been interpreted to be very anti-Iran.  Without Syria as an ally, Iran will have a much harder time trying to arm Hezbollah in Lebanon.  I've yet to see any credible reports suggesting that the current movement is fundamentalist muslim, but rather trying to gain greater individual rights.  I like wise haven't hear a word about 'radical Islamic coalitions' in Egypt from anyone but Mubarak, who was trying to keep the US on his side.  I've also read articles describing conflict between the Iranian government and their supreme leader, which may suggest a weakening of Iran.  So far, I haven't hear anything from Egypt that would suggest much of a change on their Israel policy.  The people of Jordan have also demanded more individual rights, however their government obliged allowing for peace to continue.  The Fatah and Hamas reconciliation does worry me a bit, hopefully Fatah will be a more positive influence on Hamas.  The idea of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as the joint Palestine/Israel capital was the original plan when the two countries were created, so thats noting new (although its just as stupid now as it was then).

So in short, from what I can tell most of the ongoing actions in the Middle East will favor the US and more "western" principles.  My main concern is if the rebels in Libya don't succeed (so long as we don't invade/occupy I think they will continue to treat us favorably, but if they loose the terrorist Gaddafi may try something) and the Palestine/Israel issue.  

-Line58

i pray you're right, but i fear you are blinded. still holding the line that these were democracy movements huh? how about the brotherhood calling for a review of the camp david accord? more than 50% of egyptians say they want an end to the peace treaty. they're working to open their gaza border. they came out and defended bin laden, even calling him a sheikh. the things that are happening in egypt are not to the benefit of anyone other than islamists.

it's time to wake up dude, and educate yourself. these "pro-democracy" movements have been about one thing. removing western sympathetic dictators, and replacing them with hardline islamic democracies. as if these movements would result in the same kind of democracy we adhere to in the west...

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and don't get me wrong, syria is a slightly different situation. but what i think you (and the mainstream media) fail to notice, is that in the middle east, politics and religion go hand and hand. hell, everything and religion goes hand and hand in the mideast. in that context, everything is just different there than it is in a judeo-christian society. my point is, these movements ARE politically based, BUT i believe it is the religious aspect to their politics that is the driving force here, and is the most well organized mechanism to "pick up the pieces" and "rebuild" if you will.

i mean it's just not something we can fully appreciate here, but when a middle easterner thinks of a movement of the people, they don't think of it through the prism of western democratic ideals. they think of an ISLAMIC movement of the people. it's a very populist sort of thing, and the populace has been indoctrinated with certain views, such as hating jews.

and regardless of how things turn out in syria, i can guarantee you that iran will have its influence. how can you say iran's influence is deminishing, when they're sending warships through the suez canal? you think there wasn't some major symbolism there? they've been siding with the revolutionaries all over the middle east.

just wait and watch.

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put it this way. all these "revolutions" can be summed up like this. it's been fundamentalism vs. secularism.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

i pray you're right, but i fear you are blinded. still holding the line that these were democracy movements huh? how about the brotherhood calling for a review of the camp david accord? more than 50% of egyptians say they want an end to the peace treaty. they're working to open their gaza border. they came out and defended bin laden, even calling him a sheikh. the things that are happening in egypt are not to the benefit of anyone other than islamists.

it's time to wake up dude, and educate yourself. these "pro-democracy" movements have been about one thing. removing western sympathetic dictators, and replacing them with hardline islamic democracies. as if these movements would result in the same kind of democracy we adhere to in the west...

I was gonna mention these things too.  Many in egypt want to end the peace treaty with Israel.  Hamas and Hezbollah have formed an alliance to oppose Israel.  And dont think for one second they like us either.

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then comes Sunday.