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webdog  
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Church as a business?
Something I've struggled with the past few years is how today's church is run. I'm not talking about congregational vs. elder rule, purpose driven, seeker, etc. I'm talking about the giving of tithes and offerings and how they are used. Every time I see a breakdown of how giving is used, it both sickens and saddens me. I'll give you a random number of what I'm talking about. Say in a 6 month period a church receives 200k in tithes and offering. Say it is broken down to 120k in personnel and 70k in facilities leaving 10k for everything else including supporting missions, discipleship (which I do understand the salaried pastor is a big part of), bereavement, etc.

Is this the way the church was intended to be and what is one supposed to do if they do not agree with this model and there are no other churches around? I do not believe at this point in time God has called me to plant a church or be a pastor, so that option is out. As someone who is struggling financially (along with many Americans) I'm having a hard time setting aside a portion to "give back to God" that will end up being primarily used to support a salary or building. I realize this could just be me, and the purpose of this thread is to work through this.
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  #2  
01-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Brads70  
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I to have issue's with what your talking about. How I settled it is, all I have is God's period. I believe he asks me to give back a portion in faith. So I do in faith. I don't stick to the 10% I pray about it and a number usually comes up . Often it's more than 10%.
I figure/reason it's not my job to worry about how someone else spends the money , it's my job to be obedient and give it back as it was never really mine in the first place. God is MUCH bigger than I am and See's the whole picture. He is in control of how it's spent. While I do struggle with leaving things at his feet, this issue I HAVE to, as it would drive me nuts otherwise!
I do believe someday.... some people will have some "explaining to do" my job is to not be one of them.
Just my 2 cents....hope it helped?

  #3  
01-30-2012, 12:34 PM
     
webdog  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brads70  
I to have issue's with what your talking about. How I settled it is, all I have is God's period. I believe he asks me to give back a portion in faith. So I do in faith. I don't stick to the 10% I pray about it and a number usually comes up . Often it's more than 10%.
I figure/reason it's not my job to worry about how someone else spends the money , it's my job to be obedient and give it back as it was never really mine in the first place. God is MUCH bigger than I am and See's the whole picture. He is in control of how it's spent. While I do struggle with leaving things at his feet, this issue I HAVE to, as it would drive me nuts otherwise!
I do believe someday.... some people will have some "explaining to do" my job is to not be one of them.
Just my 2 cents....hope it helped?
Thanks for the input. This is actually my position currently, but got to thinking...since I do receive a bi-annual report I cannot really claim ignorance...I know how the money is being used. This makes me a steward of what He has given me, and if I cannot agree with how the local church uses it, how can I be a "cheerful giver"?
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  #4  
01-30-2012, 12:35 PM
agedman  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog  
Something I've struggled with the past few years is how today's church is run. I'm not talking about congregational vs. elder rule, purpose driven, seeker, etc. I'm talking about the giving of tithes and offerings and how they are used. Every time I see a breakdown of how giving is used, it both sickens and saddens me. I'll give you a random number of what I'm talking about. Say in a 6 month period a church receives 200k in tithes and offering. Say it is broken down to 120k in personnel and 70k in facilities leaving 10k for everything else including supporting missions, discipleship (which I do understand the salaried pastor is a big part of), bereavement, etc.

Is this the way the church was intended to be and what is one supposed to do if they do not agree with this model and there are no other churches around? I do not believe at this point in time God has called me to plant a church or be a pastor, so that option is out. As someone who is struggling financially (along with many Americans) I'm having a hard time setting aside a portion to "give back to God" that will end up being primarily used to support a salary or building. I realize this could just be me, and the purpose of this thread is to work through this.

Having gone through this myself, (being released by SB churches for not giving to the "cooperative program) I have understanding of both the emotional aspect and the need to actually see the giving as to the Lord.

Two immediate thoughts come to mind.

First, the giving is to be as you prosper. That doesn't mean that you don't have the example of the widow woman's mite giving, but you as a father are first responsible to provide for the family.

So, within that responsibility you need to examine what is a need and what is a luxury. Whatever is luxury should be consider "prosper." Look at clothing for instance.

Say you have two suits - do you need them? Perhaps you do, if you work in a suit, but perhaps not if they are just the Sunday best. Do you have multiple jackets - consider what is necessary and what is prosperity.

I look at my bride's shoes - and I learned to keep my thoughts and mouth shut.  

What I am saying is that giving isn't necessarily money. We are to give of all our increase.

Secondly, don't think that giving will automatically bring prosperity. It is better to give out of a heart of love and conviction that what you are giving is to the glory of God, than to ever hope to gain by giving. Giving will bring blessings, no doubt, and giving is not an option to a loving believer.

Bring you and your family to a high sense of giving to others' needs. I once visited in the home of an elderly couple. I sensed the prompting of the Holy Spirit to do some physical helps to the most evident need, but was too busy to submit. I can tell you to the day the exactness of the rebuke God brought to my family.

It is just my bride and I at home now, and I am the chief cook and bottle washer. We are also no longer comfortable with inviting folks over for a visit in our home. We don't turn anyone away, but never know from one day to the next our own health and wellness of home and body. It is hard to fix shrimp creole for two. So, I make it for more and give a portion. I do the same with the meet loaf and chocolate chip cookies. The Dr. Pepper cake I make stays at home, though.  

Specifically about your question in support of the local church. As a member sees their own financial state decline, it is difficult to keep the eyes off the immediate personal needs and upon the actual needs of the assembly.

The widow lady wasn't concerned with the overly rich and piety of the temple nor the priests. She gave because it was in her heart to give. She gave the amount that was in her heart to give. Of all the people she was singled out because of the heart value not the financial value.

So whatever you and your family give, and no matter what form the giving takes, it is paramount that the heart value abound in the aspect of love.

For without love, it is possible to give and to excessively give, and it be of no value to the assembly or the giver.

  #5  
01-30-2012, 12:53 PM
Tom Bryant  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog  
Thanks for the input. This is actually my position currently, but got to thinking...since I do receive a bi-annual report I cannot really claim ignorance...I know how the money is being used. This makes me a steward of what He has given me, and if I cannot agree with how the local church uses it, how can I be a "cheerful giver"?
I always ask this question first, have you spoken to your church's leadership about it?

But if you have, and from your other posts, I imagine you have talked to them (which is a good thing), then if you're still not happy with the direction the church is going, you have to decide if it's important enough to end the relationship or to 'live with it'.

Another question is what part are you unhappy about? the personnel or the facilities?
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  #6  
01-30-2012, 12:57 PM
     
webdog  
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Quote:
I always ask this question first, have you spoken to your church's leadership about it?
I haven't. My OP was essntially asking if this is normal since this has been the trend from the few I've been part of in my life.
Quote:
But if you have, and from your other posts, I imagine you have talked to them (which is a good thing), then if you're still not happy with the direction the church is going, you have to decide if it's important enough to end the relationship or to 'live with it'.
But even if I do (or did), what is the alternative? I'm not finding one in this day and age.
Quote:
Another question is what part are you unhappy about? the personnel or the facilities?
Both, but not so much as what the money is NOT being used for which are many.
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  #7  
01-30-2012, 01:17 PM
Tom Bryant  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog  
I haven't. My OP was essntially asking if this is normal since this has been the trend from the few I've been part of in my life.
But even if I do (or did), what is the alternative? I'm not finding one in this day and age.
Both, but not so much as what the money is NOT being used for which are many.
Really not trying to argue, but if you had you 'druthers would you let staff go to spend more in ministry opportunities or try to hurry and pay off mortgages on the bldgs so you could eventually get to more into ministry?

Trust me, I share your frustration at this. Most pastors do. I think part of the alternative is to train and then set lay people free to do the ministry that staff is being paid for AND to not build facilities that handcuff what the church can do service wise.

It's a very tough and delicate balance to find and keep. I like this thread. Maybe all of us can work out something.
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  #8  
01-30-2012, 02:11 PM
agedman  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bryant  
Really not trying to argue, but if you had you 'druthers would you let staff go to spend more in ministry opportunities or try to hurry and pay off mortgages on the bldgs so you could eventually get to more into ministry?

Trust me, I share your frustration at this. Most pastors do. I think part of the alternative is to train and then set lay people free to do the ministry that staff is being paid for AND to not build facilities that handcuff what the church can do service wise.

It's a very tough and delicate balance to find and keep. I like this thread. Maybe all of us can work out something.
Tom, I agree.

There are some who are gifted in finances, building, cleaning, teaching, ...

Unfortunately, many assemblies would rather pay for janitorial service than have a come to meet and clean time one evening a week.

I once sat and watched the youth trash a section of the sanctuary with no care that they might be required to clean up after themselves. Then the parents become offended when a low on the totem pole staff member required them to pick it all up. "That's the janitor's job..."

Perhaps the Amish have the right idea about community members helping and meeting the needs of each other that the Baptists cousins have long neglected.

  #9  
01-30-2012, 02:43 PM
     
webdog  
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Quote:
Really not trying to argue, but if you had you 'druthers would you let staff go to spend more in ministry opportunities or try to hurry and pay off mortgages on the bldgs so you could eventually get to more into ministry?
What if you are renting? And based on the above numbers (which I made up) is the salary for a Sr. pastor, associate pastor and two part time staff (one administrative, one to clean / decorate) something that should be supplied by a few hundred people (more than 2 less than 5)? I'm trying to find out what others use as a guide, and if this guide is done biblically or "non profitably".
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  #10  
01-30-2012, 02:50 PM
glfredrick  
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I know of multiple congregations that are using borrowed or rented facilities. While they save money in comparison to holding a facility of their own they are also hamstrung over the high cost in personnel to set up and tear down for every event.

I'm not against the "houseless" church, but it had better be thought out well before implimentation. Otherwise, go with the building.

About costs, yes, they go up and up and up, including salaries of staff. What doesn't seem to keep up however is the tithe or offering. I still find people doing the same old $5 or $20 that they did in the 1970s though that money today doesn't purchase much against a $500 electric bill.

And, if you want some real headaches (and blessings!) our former church in Louisville saw an annual budget of over $2.4 million plus an additional giving of another $2.1 million per year for expansion and new work. We had one member that wrote a $2 million check! Another purchased outright an old Catholic Cathedral that was all but abandoned so that we could renovate and move to larger facilites for worship. Average age of the church members is under 30...  
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It is a well known fact that typically as the income goes up, the percentage of their income that is given goes down. The highest percentage given was during the depression than before the depression. It continued at the same percentage until 2006 when Americans were 569% richer after taxes and inflation than in the Great Depression. Source:You Mean I Dont Have to Tithe? by David A. Croteau)
Last edited by gb93433; 01-30-2012 at 07:31 PM.



  #22  
01-30-2012, 11:10 PM
Tom Butler  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog  
Is your church elder lead or congregational lead?
Good question. The only elder we have is our pastor. We have deacons, but they do not "run the church." When I first became a deacon in 1967, though, it was that way. The deacons acted as a board, and exercised great influence on the direction of the church.

It is no longer that way. We see ourselves as servants, not bosses. The congregation does look to its deacons for some leadership, but mainly, it looks to our pastor.

I wouldn't say that our church is congregation-led in the pure sense of the concept. The congregation has the ultimate authority, but but delegates the legwork to pastor, deacons, trustees and other committees.

As I said in another post, once the congregation has approved the budget (which reflects our mission and outreach priorities), it has basically done its work.

Of course, there is a degree of accountability for us all. But we understand that our pastor is ultimately accountable to God for the church.

Other churches may operate differently, but it works for us.

  #23  
01-30-2012, 11:23 PM
     
saturneptune  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog  
Is your church elder lead or congregational lead?
I attend the same church as Tom, and he has painted an accurate picture of the finances. It works very well. Our only problem with money is a declineing population because our average age is well above 70.

We are congregationally ruled. I spent over 25 years in a Presbyterian Church, and have been here 35. There is no way I would ever be in a church with elder rule or a hierarchy. Elder rule tends to become elder worship. They are elected more on social status than spiritual maturity. My experience is that our deacons and even our individual congregation memeber are far superior in spiritual maturity than the Presbyterian elders and Presbyters above them. There is not one ounce of arrogance in our church, and it needs to stay that way.
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  #24  
01-31-2012, 09:29 AM
     
DiamondLady  
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We are a very small church, typically Southern Baptist. We're led by the pastor and have committees, including a finance committee of which, as treasurer, I am chairperson. We prepare and present an annual budget, based upon the previous year's giving, to the church each year. We do not, however, live and breathe by that budget. A budget is a guideline. We try to stick to it, and do in areas of salaries and mission giving but in ministries (children's, VBS, etc) in facilities (supplies, repairs, utilities etc) and in benevolence we realize that the budget must be flexible.

You must run a church, finance wise, similarly to a business, but there must be a heart component as well. I'll never forget the time, we were working on the budget and tithes and offerings were down quite a bit and we were forced to cut expenses and the budget. One of the men said we should just write the checks and send them out, even if we didn't have the money, and trust God to provide it. A church can't do that, so in that way one must run it like a business....only spending what you have. It's not that God CAN'T provide, He can, but we need to be good stewards of the money given by the congregation and spend it wisely.

  #25  
01-31-2012, 10:23 AM
gb93433  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiamondLady  
You must run a church, finance wise, similarly to a business, but there must be a heart component as well. I'll never forget the time, we were working on the budget and tithes and offerings were down quite a bit and we were forced to cut expenses and the budget. One of the men said we should just write the checks and send them out, even if we didn't have the money, and trust God to provide it. A church can't do that, so in that way one must run it like a business....only spending what you have. It's not that God CAN'T provide, He can, but we need to be good stewards of the money given by the congregation and spend it wisely.
When I worked at two business every month we saw churches that did not pay its bill. They were churches that did not run into hard times but "trusted God for their finances." It was common that their greed exceeded their needs. Imagine what I felt like working among non-Christians who knew that too.

I pastored a church and saw how they did their books. I told the lady who kept the books that they were doing it wrong and it was not legal. The lady went to the denomination and what they told her was wrong. when I filed my taxes the IRS came back with a letter saying that I owed about $5,000. My accountant wrote a letter to the IRS and they sent me a nice letter in return saying that everything was good. The problem fell back on the church that refused to listen on a lot of things.

I always laugh when people say that the church should not be run like a business because like churches, about 80% of the churches and businesses that are started fail within two years.

I know a pastor who is the son in law of a well known denominational leader who beats the drum of believing the Bible. The son in law's church crashed due to some irresponsible financial accounting. The church ended up in trouble because they disregarded some legal things because they saw them as unimportant. When someone (outside of the church) filed a lawsuit the people vanished.

  #26  
01-31-2012, 10:31 AM
gb93433  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saturneptune  
I attend the same church as Tom, and he has painted an accurate picture of the finances. It works very well. Our only problem with money is a declineing population because our average age is well above 70.
There are methods that have worked which could help that problem if the people are willing to work. A few years ago a church contact me which was in much the same situation and when I told them about what they could do they gave all kinds of excuses about how they were old and could not do anything. All they kept saying was that they needed some young people. I gave them a method and was willing to help them but my advice fell on deaf ears.

I was in a church where an elderly man was reaching people all the time because he loved and cared about them. Whenever I was at his home his phone was always ringing. There were 1200 at his funeral. Person after person talked about how had used him in their life. at about the age of 90 my grandmother told me and my wife about how she hated being around old people because they were always griping. 90 and did not like being around old people!!!! she loved kids and young people. She had helped a lot of young people when she could. She often sewed for young moms.

  #27  
01-31-2012, 12:21 PM
agedman  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Butler  
Good question. The only elder we have is our pastor. We have deacons, but they do not "run the church." When I first became a deacon in 1967, though, it was that way. The deacons acted as a board, and exercised great influence on the direction of the church.

It is no longer that way. We see ourselves as servants, not bosses. The congregation does look to its deacons for some leadership, but mainly, it looks to our pastor.

I wouldn't say that our church is congregation-led in the pure sense of the concept. The congregation has the ultimate authority, but but delegates the legwork to pastor, deacons, trustees and other committees.

As I said in another post, once the congregation has approved the budget (which reflects our mission and outreach priorities), it has basically done its work.

Of course, there is a degree of accountability for us all. But we understand that our pastor is ultimately accountable to God for the church.

Other churches may operate differently, but it works for us.
Would you consider the trustees of the typical Baptist church the Elders?

I realize that trustees are actually legal binding authorities over the property and additions, and are then both signers and guarantees of the loans and legal documents.

I was just wondering if there would be some connection (since trustees are not a biblical station and elder is.

  #28  
01-31-2012, 01:04 PM
     
saturneptune  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gb93433  
There are methods that have worked which could help that problem if the people are willing to work. A few years ago a church contact me which was in much the same situation and when I told them about what they could do they gave all kinds of excuses about how they were old and could not do anything. All they kept saying was that they needed some young people. I gave them a method and was willing to help them but my advice fell on deaf ears.

I was in a church where an elderly man was reaching people all the time because he loved and cared about them. Whenever I was at his home his phone was always ringing. There were 1200 at his funeral. Person after person talked about how had used him in their life. at about the age of 90 my grandmother told me and my wife about how she hated being around old people because they were always griping. 90 and did not like being around old people!!!! she loved kids and young people. She had helped a lot of young people when she could. She often sewed for young moms.
Thanks for that post. I am Sunday School director, and it is very challenging to say the least, if we have, say 50, that come on Sunday morning and literally 40 of them are 70 and above. We have people that are in their 80s, and 90s and still live alone and drive.

The pastor, myself and some others visit on Saturdays, class by class, to try and get people back in Sunday School. We need families with growing children. I would say the population between 15-55 is practically nonexistent. I like to minister to older people, but that is only part of the equation. All ages should be there for a healthy congregation. I am just a little time away from 60, and considered a young person. That is a red flag. I do not know if the problem is lack of visitation, or just the general mindset of the community. When I first started going there, all ages were there. We had 600 members 30 years ago. Not really sure what happened. The love the congregation has for each other is amazing, and that is why i said, in the other thread, I would never destroy the fellowship we do have over a issue like Calvinism. It is sometimes a helpless feeling knowing the number of lost people in our small town, and seeing pew after pew empty. Sometimes I look at the crowd at a UK basketball game, and look at the cheering, the packed house, the excitement, and wondered how I could transfer that to interest in the Lord. The final conclusion is trust in the Lord. He is in control of this, but it is hard not to have up and down feelings about it. However, although the Lord is in control, that is no excuse for laziness and not visiting.
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God is working His purpose out as year succeeds to year
God is working His purpose out and the time is drawing near
Yet nearer and nearer draws the time, the time that shall surely be
When the earth shall be filled with the glory of God as the waters cover the sea

  #29  
01-31-2012, 01:35 PM
Tom Butler  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agedman  
Would you consider the trustees of the typical Baptist church the Elders?

I realize that trustees are actually legal binding authorities over the property and additions, and are then both signers and guarantees of the loans and legal documents.

I was just wondering if there would be some connection (since trustees are not a biblical station and elder is.
Trustees fulfill a legal requirement, not a Biblical requirement.

At our church, the trustees also serve as the House and Grounds Committee. Other churches may do it differently.

They are not elders. We have only one elder, our pastor.

  #30  
01-31-2012, 07:18 PM
     
DiamondLady  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agedman  
Would you consider the trustees of the typical Baptist church the Elders?

I realize that trustees are actually legal binding authorities over the property and additions, and are then both signers and guarantees of the loans and legal documents.

I was just wondering if there would be some connection (since trustees are not a biblical station and elder is.
We do not have Elders and our Trustees are more of a glorified Buildings and Grounds Committee...every man in the church is a "trustee." Our church is incorporated and has three officers who are the legal binding authorities. One we're going to have to replace rather quickly...our chairman of the Deacons who was the "President" passed away in December, myself as Treasurer, and then one church member "at large" elected from the membership for a period of time.