OFFLINE

Re Dod's point about the state's teet. We pay into the State's coffers via tax and National Insurance. So, if I were to become unemployed tomorrow I would receive benefits. There are people who I call the professional unemployed who have never had a job and never intend getting one. They work the system claiming every benefit they can and giving nothing back. They are also the minority. There are a lot of poor people who work bloody hard for a pittance of pay and generally have to make do with no benefits. Basically they are being kept in limbo by the system while the rich get richer....

Traditionally in Britain the Conservatives are the political right. Labour the political left. The Lib Dems the centre.

Tony Blair created New Labour - basically the Conservatives but with a smile. In order to win the 1997 election he had to appeal to the greatest number of morons possible. New Labour seemed to have moved to the political centre. Here's the thing - they hadn't. They had moved to the right.

The Conservatives realised that in order to win an election ever again they would have to appeal to the greatest number of morons possible. To do this they seemed to move to the left. Only they hadn't.

Essentially New Labour were the Conservatives with a teflon coated smile. So we had two main political parties who were both to the right trying to appeal to the most people possible - the centre.

The muppets fell for it and voted the Conservatives (and Lib Dems) in with a narrow victory over Labour.  

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:

Originally Posted by Russell Jones:
Americans riot, but not about things like this.  We grouse and grumble about economic matters, but we typically don't get in a riotous mood, unless of course, the World Bank or IMF is meeting somewhere.

we haven't cut any programs yet, either.

Umm sorry but many school HAVE cut music and physical fitness programs across the board in America. We are getting lazy and too much left brained!

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by David Macleod:
The poor in our Countries live relatively better than those in less developed Countries. However there are still great gulfs between the better off and the poor and if the US is anything like us the gulf is never narrowing always growing. Why? Because the Govt looks after the rich and treads on the poor. The rich can 'hide' their money in offshore accounts and use tax loopholes to stay rich while the rest of us are taxed to death at every turn.

There are some very rich people who give a great deal of time and money to help those worse off than themselves and equally there are poorer people who do the same. The fact is that most people have a 'charity begins at home' mentality toward helping others.

this is true dave, but how do you think our massively bloated governments got to the size and scope they are now? it wasn't because they themselves are capable of creating wealth. its been on the backs of all the entrepreneurial private citizens, who have made us the most wealthy civilization in the history of the species, wealthy enough to support trillion dollar per year "budgets."

i would say that capitalism is simply the natural order. it goes all the way back to our days as barterers. once you start playing around with socialist policies, you disrupt that natural order. we are not insulated from the natural order. in nature there must be winners and losers. in life, there must be winners and losers. we can't force mediocrity on everyone, and make everyone the same. this is what we call communism. totalitarianism. and we are not insulated from the repeated failures of history.

the further you slide toward the left end of the spectrum, the more powerful you allow the government to be. why? because when something is unnatural, you must force it on everyone.

what is government's role regarding this? simply protection. the government should be like the groundskeepers. it's they're job to ensure a level playing field, but then they should step out of the way on gameday, to let the players do their best. leave it to them to work out who wins and loses. but instead, what do we have? as you alluded to, you have special interests, and lobbyists. which brings me to my final point.

if politicians really care so much about the lower classes, why aren't there any lower class politicians?

OFFLINE

David MacLeod said:
Traditionally in Britain the Conservatives are the political right. Labour the political left. The Lib Dems the centre.

Tony Blair created New Labour - basically the Conservatives but with a smile. In order to win the 1997 election he had to appeal to the greatest number of morons possible. New Labour seemed to have moved to the political centre. Here's the thing - they hadn't. They had moved to the right.

The Conservatives realised that in order to win an election ever again they would have to appeal to the greatest number of morons possible. To do this they seemed to move to the left. Only they hadn't.

Essentially New Labour were the Conservatives with a teflon coated smile. So we had two main political parties who were both to the right trying to appeal to the most people possible - the centre.

The muppets fell for it and voted the Conservatives (and Lib Dems) in with a narrow victory over Labour.  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd love you to define all of these terms.  The Liberals were traditionally the party of laisser faire and the small state, of free trade and self help.  They were set up in 1859 to support Italian Unification.  They were the party of Non Conformity and other non Anglican groups supporting religious freedom in an age when the Anglican church dominated.  Later they launched the Welfare State in the age of the New Freedom and moved towards orporate (bigger state) principles.

All parties gravitate towards the Centre (even Hitler's).  Oddly enough, most parties want to wiin elections.  New Labour abandoned Communism, the Hard left and Militant tendency because it was a blind alley.  No one wanted it (even the Russians).  Clause !V was a nonsense.  Blair logically but annoyingly decided to combine Capitalism with Socialism and ride both horses concurrently.  In this he went back to David Lloyd George and the idea of an active state.  This active state has been seen in Nazi Germany, New Deal America, and currently in China.  The left-right-centre formula is too simplistic

OFFLINE

I personally am in no way a leftist. Neither am I a right wing kinda guy and I don't like the Lib Dems either. Your points about capatalism are right enough but at the same time the Govt looks after the rich at the expense of the poor. That is not natural order. It is elitism and it is corrupt.

Politicians don't give a rats ass about the poor as far as I can tell. They careabout themselves and should be taken out and shot. Ok the shooting bit is extreme and I don't really think they should be but they are a bunch of crooked, thieving scumbags who are out for themselves first and foremost.

We need to overhaul the entire system as there is no way in hell anything will change as long as politicians are simply puppets being played by corporations for the benefit of the already rich. So nothing will change. Ever. Whoop de doo ain't the West grand....

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by David Macleod:
I personally am in no way a leftist. Neither am I a right wing kinda guy and I don't like the Lib Dems either. Your points about capatalism are right enough but at the same time the Govt looks after the rich at the expense of the poor. That is not natural order. It is elitism and it is corrupt.

Politicians don't give a rats ass about the poor as far as I can tell. They careabout themselves and should be taken out and shot. Ok the shooting bit is extreme and I don't really think they should be but they are a bunch of crooked, thieving scumbags who are out for themselves first and foremost.

We need to overhaul the entire system as there is no way in hell anything will change as long as politicians are simply puppets being played by corporations for the benefit of the already rich. So nothing will change. Ever. Whoop de doo ain't the West grand....

mort, i feel we are so close to being on the same page here, yet there still seems to be some gulf between us. we're close though. i think that perhaps it is our labeling that is off. i think you are a product of a system (being as intelligent and free-thinking as you are), that has lied to the people for so long about what's left and  what's right. don't feel bad, for i too am a part of such a system. it's the reason that conservative parties in our countries have been led around by the nose, into these same, failed, big government policies of the left.

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by David Macleod:
I personally am in no way a leftist. Neither am I a right wing kinda guy and I don't like the Lib Dems either. Your points about capatalism are right enough but at the same time the Govt looks after the rich at the expense of the poor. That is not natural order. It is elitism and it is corrupt.

Politicians don't give a rats ass about the poor as far as I can tell. They careabout themselves and should be taken out and shot. Ok the shooting bit is extreme and I don't really think they should be but they are a bunch of crooked, thieving scumbags who are out for themselves first and foremost.

We need to overhaul the entire system as there is no way in hell anything will change as long as politicians are simply puppets being played by corporations for the benefit of the already rich. So nothing will change. Ever. Whoop de doo ain't the West grand....

Interesting view that politicians do nothing for the poor.  In Wales, successive British and Welsh politicians have taxed the rich to the margins of tolerance and have used the moneys levied to:
Build schools and educate youngsters from the age of 4 until they are 18 - with no contributory cost beyond taxes
Provide a NHS free at the point of need for the entire populus
Provided pensions for the over 65s on a universal basis (and women earlier)
Provide police
Furnish a military
Developed a Welfare state so that Disabled people are provisioned, Unemployed receive benefits, Accomodation is provided, etc
Provided a zillion other services that are taken for granted


My grouse is that politicians HAVE provided for the 'poor' and disincentivized the 'poor' from self provision.  My other grouse is that politicians HAVE soaked the hard working and enterprising disincentivizing them from hard work and risk taking

OFFLINE

Lot's of interesting arguments from all sides.However,I think it comes down to one very basic argument.People are not rioting because of greed.People are rioting  because governments all around the world haave lost track.They are failing their communities on basic levels,education,health and safety.And by safety I do not mean fighting 'wars" in far off places,but safety at home.Untold amounts of our money are spent in ways that have little do with the 3 core responsibilities of government.Left/right or centre they have been focused on other things and have for the most practised unsound fiscal management.
Yes there cases where the frustrations of certain groups have been used to the advantage of some.This is obvious when protests become riots.I can understand the frustration of British students at fees,here in Australia our free education system has been so eroded that it will soon be the privilige of wealth that gets you a degree.I understand the anger of people who have watched as their countries economies have collapsed,despite their hard work and high taxes.
Worldwide there is an epidemic of financial mismanagement by government that is going to have far reaching effects on most of our lives.

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Alun Hughes:

Originally Posted by David Macleod:
I personally am in no way a leftist. Neither am I a right wing kinda guy and I don't like the Lib Dems either. Your points about capatalism are right enough but at the same time the Govt looks after the rich at the expense of the poor. That is not natural order. It is elitism and it is corrupt.

Politicians don't give a rats ass about the poor as far as I can tell. They careabout themselves and should be taken out and shot. Ok the shooting bit is extreme and I don't really think they should be but they are a bunch of crooked, thieving scumbags who are out for themselves first and foremost.

We need to overhaul the entire system as there is no way in hell anything will change as long as politicians are simply puppets being played by corporations for the benefit of the already rich. So nothing will change. Ever. Whoop de doo ain't the West grand....

Interesting view that politicians do nothing for the poor.  In Wales, successive British and Welsh politicians have taxed the rich to the margins of tolerance and have used the moneys levied to:
Build schools and educate youngsters from the age of 4 until they are 18 - with no contributory cost beyond taxes
Provide a NHS free at the point of need for the entire populus
Provided pensions for the over 65s on a universal basis (and women earlier)
Provide police
Furnish a military
Developed a Welfare state so that Disabled people are provisioned, Unemployed receive benefits, Accomodation is provided, etc
Provided a zillion other services that are taken for granted


My grouse is that politicians HAVE provided for the 'poor' and disincentivized the 'poor' from self provision.  My other grouse is that politicians HAVE soaked the hard working and enterprising disincentivizing them from hard work and risk taking

This reminds me of The Life of Brian - "What have the Romans ever done for us"

Yes they have done all those things you mention  but we are taxed to death for them, they are failing us and have become bloated monsters. The rich have been taxed to the margins of tolerance? As arguments go that's about as lame as a duck with no legs. Everybody's tax pays for the things you have mentioned.

Politicians like to appear to be standing on the centre ground as you say that gets them the most votes. However they aren't. In the U.S the Dems stand to the political right (compared to Europe) and the Rep's are further to the right. It's the same here. We like to kid ourselves that we have 2 and 3 party politics but the sad reality is that we have 1 party politics. We can choose from slightly right wing (Labour) or more right wing (Tories). Obviously, as you will no doubt point out Alun, I have simpified this but there is no need to make it more complex. There are other political parties but they are much more marginal and appeal to smaller groups - The Welsh Nationals, the Scottish National Party, UKIP (UK Independence Party) etc. None of these parties really have a snowballs hope of getting into any serious Govt on a UK wide level but the SNP and Welsh Nats are doing ok for votes  in their home Countries.

The Govt has not disincentivised the poor from working. Yes some people are better off living on benefits but that is party because of the way our system is set up. I know of people who are on the bread line, want to work but simply can't afford to because they would be so much worse off. Obviously there are also the professional unemployed but I've mentioned them before.

The fact is that many people are trapped in poverty by the system. The same system that you seem to think gives the poor rich such a hard time.

Politicians are out of touch with the majority of the Country. They are selfish and greedy. Want proof? Expenses claims.  

OFFLINE

Originally Posted by Gina Stern:

Worldwide there is an epidemic of financial mismanagement by government that is going to have far reaching effects on most of our lives.

crux of the matter. isn't it strange that the more we fund government, the more they let us down?

OFFLINE

Quite so. Also the more they feel they can run our lives, lie to us, keep the truth from us... Though imo individuals are intelligent the masses are panicky, stupid and should not have the keys to the liquor cabinet

OFFLINE

well to be honest, all we're good for to the elites, is how much we can be taxed, and how much we consume. consumption has become the new surfdom.