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Learning the rudiments of music has to be an advantage, isn't it?

What about the people who have never had a lesson, can't read a note, and yet are phenomenal players?

Gifted or Learned?

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As Forrest Gump said, "I think it's a little of both" in many cases. You can tell a gifted (natural) musician from one that has just had lessons forced on them all their lives. The ones born with that certain something not only learn (one way or the other), but create, inspire and teach others about music. It comes from the heart and soul. A gifted musician will never be happy unless they can at least see a musical instrument around them somewhere; they need the music as much as air, food, and water to be healthy and happy. I once saw a comment posted by John Hadley that went like this, "You don't stick to music, it sticks to you." All these years I've been listening to music but never really felt satisfied with any of it. Now that I am able to see my guitars and pick one up any time I like, and play a song that either someone I admire or I wrote...that's fulfilling and satisfying beyond anything I've done in my life. I know without a shadow of a doubt that coupled equally with writing, music is one of my main purposes on this earth. Blessings,

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As the Jazz players would say, "It don't mean a thang, if it ain't got that swang"   lol!  

I mean, really, the role of a musician goes WAY back to gathering around the fire, having people to set the pace with which the entire tribe entrains.  It very well may have been a matter of survival, if we are to believe Darwin when he says that what we all got as a species must've helped us survive somehow further back along the road.

That being said, I love musicians who are technically stunning.... Frank Zappa (who I am listening to as I write this)  could read and transcribe music, and had an extensive understanding of theory.  

Not all technically stunning musicians are worth listening to.   And sometimes there are musicians who are diamonds in the rough... they really struggle but the glow just shines through all the mistakes.  Like Curt Cobain, bless his soul.

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I struggle to read even the simplest music but that doesn't stop me from playing, creating or performing. I don't know if Kris Kristofferson reads music but I watched him on "Elvis Costello Spectacle" a while back. He played simple, 3 chord songs and sang those simple melodies with his deep, gruff voice but was absolutely riveting. On the other hand, I have a friend who was a shining star at a music conservatory, studied for years and now teaches guitar. He's technically brilliant but sadly, has no real spark when he plays. He has even said that all of the studying and lessons probably hurt his creativity more than it helped him.

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In theory, it seems that a good combination of technical ability/training and----let's call it soul----would be the preference, wouldn't it?  What's that phrase....to break the rules, it is better first to have mastered them? Something like that.

The musically trained musicians I have known are as diverse as the general population I guess. Some highly technical musicians can play circles around those who play by ear, it's true. But there's no guidebook for passion and barely a name for the feeling I get when I witness a player who somehow creates a sound wherein everyone present is invited in, where everyone understands what it is that's going on though not a single one can express what it is verbally.

See? I don't even know what I'm talking about. =;-)

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I listened to a show on CBC radio one day and they had some genius guy saying that music is math. While that may be somewhat correct, there's much more to it than the right note at the right time. Joni Mitchell said "you can't teach someone how to be an artist" and she is right.

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A few years back someone critiqued one of my songs (he was very complementary) and highlighted some of the techniques and theory I was using.  It was all news to me.  I had no idea I knew so much theory.

I guess the question is whether I knew the theory but just didn't know the terminology or whether I was being completely instinctive.  Personally I'd say it's the former.  

And just on the "music is maths" thing.....  I would actually agree with this idea.  The key thing here however is that we're not talking about the mathematics we did at school. Often we tend to think as "artistes" that Maths is the antithesis of art.  Saying music is math is saying music is mechanistic and simplistic.  I would say the complete opposite is the case.  Saying music is math is flattering to music.   Mathematics is endlessly mysterious, utterly beyond my comprehension and a complete head ****.  I'm thinking of questions like, "Is 1 plus infinity greater than, less than, or the same size as infinity plus 1? " and "what happens if you subtract 1 from infinity?"  Bizarrely, mathematicians have actually suggested answers to these kind of questions.   It involves things called surreal numbers - apparently.

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There's a tendency to put the two things up as if they're mutually exclusive. Either you're a natural, or you're a technical/theory type. Of course you can be both, and in any combination.

I know a little theory, and what I know helps me a lot with the creative side of playing and writing music. It's like a painter needs to know a little theory to be able to create the colour they're after on their palette. A painter decides he wants a dark green, and gets the exact shade from knowing that blue and yellow mixed in a certain way will achieve it.

(I understand what is meant by the music is maths thing. I can hear it when I listen to JS Bach - and I mean that as a compliment. It's not that I understand what's going on mathematically, just that I can sense patterns and relationships between parts and passages all the time with his music. There's the other sense in which music is maths; that what we hear as sweet tones or harsh noise depends on the complexity of harmonics in a sound. These are mathematical relationships - or at least are relationships that can be describes fairly easily with maths.)

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I remember reading a quote out of aa jazz anthology I've got at home. I can't remember who it was (I'll try to find it when I get home and post it)
It was one of those old jazz guys, and he said something along the lines, that many of them could read music in those early days but because they were black and wern't supposed to be able to people assumed it was all instinct!
Music is never developed in pure isolation . . . its passed down in some way shape or form and what you learn influences the way you play. I think passion is a seperate thing!

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Originally Posted by Fhaedra Songrider:
Learning the rudiments of music has to be an advantage, isn't it?

What about the people who have never had a lesson, can't read a note, and yet are phenomenal players?

Gifted or Learned?

I bet gifted people in any field practice a lot more than even they acknowledge to themselves - it just doesn't feel like a chore because the desire is there - that's probably the key thing.

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Originally Posted by Chris Wilkinson:

Originally Posted by Fhaedra Songrider:
Learning the rudiments of music has to be an advantage, isn't it?

What about the people who have never had a lesson, can't read a note, and yet are phenomenal players?

Gifted or Learned?

I bet gifted people in any field practice a lot more than even they acknowledge to themselves - it just doesn't feel like a chore because the desire is there - that's probably the key thing.

I have to agree with this.  I know an extremely gifted guitar player with whom I went to music school.  He started his formal music education not being able to read a note, but he could play ANYTHING, any style, and could blow everyone out of the water with his ability.  He began playing by ear at the age of 8, and quickly surpassed his 12 year old brother, who'd been taking lessons.  He is now a session player in Nashville, raking in the bucks.  He's naturally gifted, obviously, but his mother had a hell of a time getting him to put down the guitar to do his chores!  (I had the distinct pleasure of meeting her, too...she was a trip!)