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there is some dispute over the exact number, but consumer spending accounts for 60-70% of the u.s. economy. that is an incredibly alarming number. we often hear politicians talk about creating more wealth, but how exactly are we supposed to create wealth, without creating goods? it's become apparent that we are now little more than a global consumption base. this has helped make china a rich country, while only further precipitating our decline. we've gone from being the world leader, to a dependent client-state.


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   I went to a seminar last fall that brought up this same question.  A society based on consumerism may not be the best option, you are stuck in this loop of you make money, you pay your bills, then you buy more crap to replace the already working and still good crap that you already have.  The more I think about it I wonder how feasible it is to really base our economy on this.  I am no expert on economy but I would think there has to be a more sustainable way to live.

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IMO, I agree with what's said here, but I think it points to a possible need to redefine Free Capitalism. Otherwise, manufacturing will probably never return to the US.

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how would you define free capitalism?

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Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:
IMO, I agree with what's said here, but I think it points to a possible need to redefine Free Capitalism. Otherwise, manufacturing will probably never return to the US.

True that.

I recently read where we've moved from the number 3 to the number 2 spot with regards to "highest corporate taxes in the world".  Add to that the fact that minimum wages don't help employment, it increases unemployment. Plus, we've consistently grown the entitlement class and entitlement mentality ... why work when you can rely on the government tit?

Then, you have the increasing heavy hand of government regulation ... with an Administration that's anything but pro-business.  There's no stability ... only the unpredictability of what the government's going to do next.  That keeps employers/producers/entrepreneurs hunkered down and less willing to take risks.

And then the Administration gets pissed when jobs and businesses go overseas ...

So they want to punish them by taxing them more!

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
how would you define free capitalism?

Unfortunately, I can't - completely. But it looks to me that operating under our capitalistic ideals - freely - has lead this nation into the toilet. I'm sure there are substantial reasons why so many jobs have been outsourced to other countries. But the widespread nature of this seems to have resulted in many areas' economies being rooted in nothing more than retail and various service-related jobs which I feel is insufficient to keep the country strong and prosperous.

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Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:
Unfortunately, I can't - completely. But it looks to me that operating under our capitalistic ideals - freely - has lead this nation into the toilet. I'm sure there are substantial reasons why so many jobs have been outsourced to other countries. But the widespread nature of this seems to have resulted in many areas' economies being rooted in nothing more than retail and various service-related jobs which I feel is insufficient to keep the country strong and prosperous.

The opposite is more the truth.

Capitalism isn't responsible for our situation.  It's government intervention into the free market that's at fault.

Inflation? --> Timmy's intentionally printing money to drive prices up
The Housing Crash? --> The CRA ... Fannie/Freddie
The Staggering National Debt? --> It's not capitalists who're driving it up.

And on and on ...

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Originally Posted by Shawn Ishness:

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
how would you define free capitalism?

Unfortunately, I can't - completely. But it looks to me that operating under our capitalistic ideals - freely - has lead this nation into the toilet. I'm sure there are substantial reasons why so many jobs have been outsourced to other countries. But the widespread nature of this seems to have resulted in many areas' economies being rooted in nothing more than retail and various service-related jobs which I feel is insufficient to keep the country strong and prosperous.

well, i can agree with the sentiment, though i disagree with your assessment. i would say capitalism is what has made this nation (along with the rest of the free world) great. it's the reason our poor liver more lavish lives than most 3rd world counties' upper classes. i would also contend that it is the socialistic policies pursued over the last 40-50 years that have mucked everything up. i don't see it as coincidence that the decline of european wealth and influence (following WWII), and the decline of american wealth and influence (from the 60's on), has corresponded with the implementation of big government policies.

i feel that the role of government in a capitalist society is to ensure an equal playing field, and to prevent the citizenry from being taken advantage of. not to subsidize everything and get into bed with business. it is this fusion of enterprise and government (socialism) which is most dangerous.

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and that's not a party exclusive thing. both sides have been sticking their fingers in the pot.

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Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
and that's not a party exclusive thing. both sides have been sticking their fingers in the pot.

There is a lot more truth to that them many want to admit.

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Originally Posted by Farmer Up:

Originally Posted by Dødherre Mørktre:
and that's not a party exclusive thing. both sides have been sticking their fingers in the pot.

There is a lot more truth to that them many want to admit.

and what's the reason for this? power is addictive. everyone wants to get in on the action. everyone wants to bring home the bacon, because we've figured out how to legally buy votes.